In the World, not of it.

[_Yoda]

I think that being "in the world, not of it" means that you should keep moral standards and be responsible.

What?
Whose moral standards Liz? Responsible to whom? Each individual designs their own way. We determine our own standards.
If we want to drink two beers and stop, that's fine. It is also fine to finish bottle of Scotch, preferably you wouldn't drive or lose
control. If you want to abstain, that's fine too.
Just do not bother anybody, do not knock anybody's door at the evening, especially the family came home late after a long working day
save your stupid Gospel for another day.
In our brains we have 1 trillion cells, each capable to make 500 synapses.
I think we are capable to make our own decisions.
Sorry but I just hate moral standards, I don't like anybody's definition but mine.

I don't mean you here, Liz. I hope you realize that.

Actually, Solo, we see eye to eye on this. When I was referring to moral standards, I was referring to moral standards in a general way. Maybe "eithics" would have been a better term? Basically, what I was referring to was following the Golden Rule---"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

We should treat others with respect, and take responsibility for our own actions.

[_Gadianton]

Gaz,

You're just trying to justify your pet sins. Anything you like, you've justified and call people fanatics for "looking beyond the mark". Like, You enjoy modern music, concernts, 95% of which is contrary to the gospel. But you're an outspoken fanatic on many other issues. Droopy has published in Merridian condemning the evils of modern music because that's not his thing. He might justify a couple of groups he grew up with and that's all. Then Schryver, who also preaches hellfire and damnation or death by Danites -- who like you has a God that punishes people without mercy according to his pet peeves -- is very lax on the word of wisdom. Likes a bong and a cup of coffee.

All of you apologists are the same. You are very sensitive, requiring a God that's willing to punish and torture anyone for doing things that you think are wrong, things that aren't your temptation, but at the same time will at least chastise anyone who makes a big deal out of condemning your pet sins.

[_Gazelam]

Gad,

You're just trying to justify your pet sins.

No so much pets, its more like a boarding kennel.

Anything you like, you've justified and call people fanatics for "looking beyond the mark".

No not really. I'm just as quick to cry foul on myself as I am anyone else.

Like, You enjoy modern music, concerts, 95% of which is contrary to the gospel.

I'm sure you don't recall this, but I have previously stated that I went through my record collection a few years ago (2 1/2 I think) and took out anything that I found offensive to the Spirit. It filled up a milk crate and then some. I try to enjoy many of the new artists, but I also self edit and remove anything that I personaly deem offensive. I love the band TOOL, but I only listen to their last two albums, as the first two are offensive.

Droopy has published in Merridian

I wasn't aware of this, thanks for mentioning it, good for him.

All of you apologists are the same. You are very sensitive, requiring a God that's willing to punish and torture anyone for doing things that you think are wrong, things that aren't your temptation, but at the same time will at least chastise anyone who makes a big deal out of condemning your pet sins.

I can't speak for others, but as for myself I am as critical on myself as I am on anyone. Along with editing out my music I also edited out my movie collection. I'll miss my Tarantino films, but if I want to stand before God at the last day with a clean concience, I have to whittle away at my faults. So if you see a mote in my eye, by all means call attention to it. i welcome the assistance in my self improvement.

[_Yoda]

I can't speak for others, but as for myself I am as critical on myself as I am on anyone. Along with editing out my music I also edited out my movie collection. I'll miss my Tarantino films, but if I want to stand before God at the last day with a clean concience, I have to whittle away at my faults. So if you see a mote in my eye, by all means call attention to it. i welcome the assistance in my self improvement.

I think this is why you and I can get along, Gaz. Even though we disagree on some things, you are consistent and "real". I admire that about you. *HUGS*

[_why me]

Not really. I explained what it meant. It means attempting to refrain from something that would lead someone away from god.

Like what? Pride? Contention? Boasting? Drinking tea?

I think that there are guidelines in this regard taking from the life of Christ and from the apostles. But also, there is modern day guidence in this regard too. Certainly pride used negatively can lead someone away from god. Boasting that occurs often can lead a person away from god. And contention can lead a person away from god too. Now the same would hold true for the holy ghost.

But we are human beings and mistakes happen. Recognizing the mistakes are important.

[_why me]

Critical thinking? Questioning stupid advice?

Nothing wrong with critical thinking and questioning stupid advice. But critical thinking is something that societies lack these days. And Mormons are no different in this respect. They are a part of the world. And stupid advice can be left open for debate. What is stupid advice?

[_Ray A]

I think that there are guidelines in this regard taking from the life of Christ and from the apostles. But also, there is modern day guidence in this regard too. Certainly pride used negatively can lead someone away from god. Boasting that occurs often can lead a person away from god. And contention can lead a person away from god too. Now the same would hold true for the holy ghost.

But we are human beings and mistakes happen. Recognizing the mistakes are important.

Here's my impression of you, why me. If you really believed Mormonism, you'd be an active Mormon. You are not. And while I admire your good qualities, and even your defence of Mormons, there's something out of kilter here. You are advocating a religion you don't even practice, and you've even said you lean more towards Catholicism. Am I wrong? So what you're really defending is belief, not Mormonism, per se. Am I wrong? You hold to a dichotomy, which asserts that Mormonism and Catholicism cannot be right, yet you defend both! The only reason I can think of why you do this is because of your, perhaps, transendental belief that "God encompasses all". That is, "he" works through these religions. While I can appreciate your benevolent approach to "unification", you are viewing this through the lense of post-modernism. That somehow, both Catholicism and Mormonism can be reconciled "at some level". What you need to ask yourself is this: Are they both true? Do both hold equal authority? That seems to be your assumption. If one of them held a "higher authority", you'd abandon the one that held the lesser authority. But you hold to both. So that tells me you don't really understand what Mormonism is claiming. In short, your thinking on this is muddled.

Perhaps you're just a good-hearted person (as I think you are), but you're really an innocent abroad who doesn't fully understand what's at stake. And here's what's at stake: Mormonism and Catholicism cannot both be true.

Which one will you choose?

[_why me]

Here's my impression of you, why me. If you really believed Mormonism, you'd be an active Mormon. You are not. And while I admire your good qualities, and even your defence of Mormons, there's something out of kilter here. You are advocating a religion you don't even practice, and you've even said you lean more towards Catholicism. Am I wrong? So what you're really defending is belief, not Mormonism, per se. Am I wrong? You hold to a dichotomy, which asserts that Mormonism and Catholicism cannot be right, yet you defend both! The only reason I can think of why you do this is because of your, perhaps, transendental belief that "God encompasses all". That is, "he" works through these religions. While I can appreciate your benevolent approach to "unification", you are viewing this through the lense of post-modernism. That somehow, both Catholicism and Mormonism can be reconciled "at some level". What you need to ask yourself is this: Are they both true? Do both hold equal authority? That seems to be your assumption. If one of them held a "higher authority", you'd abandon the one that held the lesser authority. But you hold to both. So that tells me you don't really understand what Mormonism is claiming. In short, your thinking on this is muddled.

Perhaps you're just a good-hearted person (as I think you are), but you're really an innocent abroad who doesn't fully understand what's at stake. And here's what's at stake: Mormonism and Catholicism cannot both be true.

Which one will you choose?

Of course I do have a problem and I recognize that problem. I cannot refute Mormonism and this is why I defend it from the critics. I feel obligated to put my two cents in because the critics are rather absolutist is claiming that the religion is man-made. This has always been my beef with critics, especially on the postmo site.

But I do have my problems with the way the LDS church worships god in their meetings and services and this problem that I have makes me a very less active person. The stress on callings and church meetings (outside of sacrament meeting or priesthood/relief society) drives me crazy. And the amount of time that is consumed in this process is quite high. Also I don't appreciate how information is conveyed in the priesthood and relief society manuals. etc. not because I think that the church is trying to hide something but because a lot is very repetitive. The manuals always stress what is considered to be important by the higher authorities but there isn't much uniqueness. This gives me a problem too.

And so, my mind is not geared to Mormon worship. Now I have made a great less active person. I can attend the service and watch others do the work. But my heart and mind is not commited to callings and church meetings outside of sunday.

I have always been a firebrand in priesthood meeting even during my young adult days as I equated the gospel to the social spheres of life at at time when the LDS stress was on the vertical relationship between us and heavenly father. I always stressed the horizontal relationship between us, heavenly father and the society in which we live. (Catholicm is very much centered in the social gospel with my hero Dorothy Day and saints that made a difference)

But I am not a dogmatic person and tend to avoid dogmatism here or at MADb. I don't get caught up in differences in the trinity etc.

[_Ray A]

But I do have my problems with the way the LDS church worships god in their meetings and services and this problem that I have makes me a very less active person. The stress on callings and church meetings (outside of sacrament meeting or priesthood/relief society) drives me crazy. And the amount of time that is consumed in this process is quite high. Also I don't appreciate how information is conveyed in the priesthood and relief society manuals. etc. not because I think that the church is trying to hide something but because a lot is very repetitive. The manuals always stress what is considered to be important by the higher authorities but there isn't much uniqueness. This gives me a problem too.

Amen.

And so, my mind is not geared to Mormon worship. Now I have made a great less active person. I can attend the service and watch others do the work. But my heart and mind is not commited to callings and church meetings outside of sunday.

Amen. The consolidated schedule was supposed to "fix" that, but the essential demands still remained. It sometimes kind of made me wonder whether I was serving God or the Church leaders.

I have always been a firebrand in priesthood meeting even during my young adult days as I equated the gospel to the social spheres of life at at time when the LDS stress was on the vertical relationship between us and heavenly father. I always stressed the horizontal relationship between us, heavenly father and the society in which we live. (Catholicm is very much centered in the social gospel with my hero Dorothy Day and saints that made a difference)

I have, in recent times, come to appreciate the religious tradition I abandoned as a 20 year old. I have such wonderful memories in regard to my Catholic upbringing, so I think I know where you're coming from.

But I am not a dogmatic person and tend to avoid dogmatism here or at MADb. I don't get caught up in differences in the trinity etc.

Neither do I.

[_moksha]

Droopy has published in Merridian condemning the evils of modern music because that's not his thing.

Droopy simply knows that the Father of teenage children, who has endured the too loud noise of Marilyn Manson over a couple of hours, can become an enraged psychopathic killer and rightfully so. Perhaps he has extended this to other types of music as well.