Will The Real Jesus Please Stand Up?

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_The Nehor
_Emeritus
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Re: Will The Real Jesus Please Stand Up?

Post by _The Nehor »

karl61 wrote:that's sort of bizarre - the real thing to do is keep God simple like the Jews did as one being who blessed them or allowed others to kick their butt.

Nehor, are you any relation to Brigham Young as he too went out on a limb:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam-God_theory


No relation. I don't think he went out on a limb. I don't talk about Adam-God as I'm afraid my views would make half those who know me think me a blasphemer (or more of a blasphemer then they previously supposed) while the other half would think me a lunatic (or more of a lunatic then they previously supposed).
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Ray A

Re: Will The Real Jesus Please Stand Up?

Post by _Ray A »

Jason Bourne wrote:I see little conflict between the passages and article of faith. It is easy to cheery pick and compare and contrast.


The reason I pointed this out is because from my experience, also confirmed by many continuing posts on MAD, is the Mormon emphasis on obedience. You know the cliché, "pray, pay and obey", I think originally coined by Steve Benson. It's not a willy-nilly observation. Although I wouldn't deny the scriptural importance of obedience, it doesn't seem to be the central message of the Gospels. Maybe that's why there are so many Mormon Pharisees (noted in my original excommunication request 21 years ago). I'm certainly not accusing you of any such thing.

Consider the following from Luke 18, with a little editing:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Mormon, and the other a publican.
11 The Mormon stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


Be honest. Does this at all sound out of place?


>
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
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Re: Will The Real Jesus Please Stand Up?

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Sure Ray there are LDS pharisees and there is and has been an emphasis on obedience. Though grace and mercy are becoming more popular topics in the Church. Books like Robinson's Believing Christ and Millet's Grace works! are very popular books. And of course one can read the Book of Mormon and much of the early D&C and get lots of grace and Born of God doctrine. Just read Mosiah 27-29 and Alma's story. And I really like D&C 20:1-30 or so.

LDS Doctrine and scripture has lots of grace and mercy and born again doctrine. And I think I see it surfacing more and more. Over burdened LDS members love to hear about grace and mercy. At times they have seemed starved for it. But we have the rigidity of obey and do and obey and do and endure, endure, endure! as well.
_Ray A

Re: Will The Real Jesus Please Stand Up?

Post by _Ray A »

Jason Bourne wrote: And I think I see it surfacing more and more. Over burdened LDS members love to hear about grace and mercy. At times they have seemed starved for it. But we have the rigidity of obey and do and obey and do and endure, endure, endure! as well.


I think this is a major cause of inactivity (apart from the true/false issue). And I think it's no coincidence when Mormons like yourself become "more liberal" in thinking you're much more tolerant towards other viewpoints. I kind of wonder what God thinks about some of his "defenders" on earth.
_Nightlion
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Re: Will The Real Jesus Please Stand Up?

Post by _Nightlion »

Ray A wrote:
1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
13 ¶ Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33 ¶ Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Galatians 2:

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Articles of the Mormon Faith:

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.


The unifying principle is discovered when you obey what Christ said and seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. The atonement of Christ, slain from the foundation of the earth, enables God to concieve a new heart in man, to place his seed in them that they might be more fully capable of enduring a fulness of the presence of God and be saved from less.

Paul is refering to that seed of Christ which is in him. The gift and power of the Holy Ghost which is the earnest of faith and that unction that comes down from the Father. The promise of the Father that the Jews recieved on the day of Pentecost. The same gospel that the Book of Mormon reports before and after Christ came.

As it was also had amongst the saints in the Old World, even before Christ came into the world, soem few were given a new heart from God This was to know the Lord. Taught them after the likeness of the foreskin of their hearts being removed, by their own covenant, and God's act of creation, that they might have a heart that could love God better.

Truth is eternal and iit was known from the beginning that Christ would accomplish the atonement therefore the effects of that atonement could be applied even before it was finished in the flesh. For Christ came in the meridian of time and yet he was the Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world.
_Ray A

Re: Will The Real Jesus Please Stand Up?

Post by _Ray A »

Nightlion wrote:The same gospel that the Book of Mormon reports before and after Christ came.


Which I don't accept as history. Have no fear, I'm not about to become a Christian. My approach is entirely "Jeffersonian".
_Nightlion
_Emeritus
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Re: Will The Real Jesus Please Stand Up?

Post by _Nightlion »

Ray A wrote:
Nightlion wrote:The same gospel that the Book of Mormon reports before and after Christ came.


Which I don't accept as history. Have no fear, I'm not about to become a Christian. My approach is entirely "Jeffersonian".


What's to history? If the gosepl taught is correct and you can duplicate the same results by following its example, figure out later what to make of its obscure historicity. It helps you understand what the Old Testament and New Testament were talking about, that remains vague at best, and yet perfectly clear and precise in the Book of Mormon. Unless you allow a TBM muddle your thoughts. LDS have a long tradition of saying but not doing according to that which is written.
_Nightlion
_Emeritus
Posts: 9899
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 8:11 pm

Re: Will The Real Jesus Please Stand Up?

Post by _Nightlion »

Jason Bourne wrote:Sure Ray there are LDS pharisees and there is and has been an emphasis on obedience. Though grace and mercy are becoming more popular topics in the Church. Books like Robinson's Believing Christ and Millet's Grace works! are very popular books. And of course one can read the Book of Mormon and much of the early D&C and get lots of grace and Born of God doctrine. Just read Mosiah 27-29 and Alma's story. And I really like D&C 20:1-30 or so.

LDS Doctrine and scripture has lots of grace and mercy and born again doctrine. And I think I see it surfacing more and more. Over burdened LDS members love to hear about grace and mercy. At times they have seemed starved for it. But we have the rigidity of obey and do and obey and do and endure, endure, endure! as well.


Amazingly encouraging news! I bet $100.00, having never read or even heard of either both nonscripture books cited miss the mark and will not direct a soul to accomplish a real born again experience. So you only need to prove one does. It would be cheaper to buy the books but it wearies me. In forty years of hoping it was so, so far 100% failure. But send up the proper quotes and if I accede the check's in the mail
{.......(fast talking quite voice-over) Limited to one poster and the first one actually read. No purchase neccessary. No requirement that you take the bet and be on the hook yourself for $100.00, strictly a one sided bet.}

Mormons obey a lesser god and a lesser gospel and a lesser law and omit that which is meet for the Father's kingdom and remain under that condemnation of D&C 84:50-59
_cksalmon
_Emeritus
Posts: 1267
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:20 pm

Re: Will The Real Jesus Please Stand Up?

Post by _cksalmon »

Ray A wrote:[SNIP]


Ray--

I see the dichotomy between your second quotation (from Paul) and the third (the LDS article of faith). How, in your opinion, does the Sermon on the Mount section relate to the latter two? (I don't mean, "Why did you quote that?" I mean, "How do you personally relate it to the other two?")

Best.

cks
_Ray A

Re: Will The Real Jesus Please Stand Up?

Post by _Ray A »

cksalmon wrote:I see the dichotomy between your second quotation (from Paul) and the third (the LDS article of faith). How, in your opinion, does the Sermon on the Mount section relate to the latter two? (I don't mean, "Why did you quote that?" I mean, "How do you personally relate it to the other two?")


Chris,

in my opinion verse 20 from the sermon:

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


supports Paul's teaching that:

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Contra both:

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.


There is nothing in the AoF that emphasise the importance of grace (and avoiding "the righteousness of the Pharisees") as the first two quotes do.

There's also Galatians 3:

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.



This seems to be echoed in the Book of Mormon:

33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. (2 Ne.26)


I think this is what Christ meant by "many that are first shall be last, and the last shall be first..." and even the "children of the kingdom" may be "cast out", that is, those who lived by "the righteousness of the Pharisees".
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