Eyewitnesses of the Papyri and Memory

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_William Schryver
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Re: Eyewitnesses of the Papyri and Memory

Post by _William Schryver »

Cracker Boy:
More like three.

Wrong. Actually it’s been more than four years.

He appeared on the FAIR message board in the summer of 2006 as Al Ghazali, and he clearly knew next to nothing about the subject. After observing the debates on the matter, he decided Book of Abraham apologetics was in shambles, and decided he would address the matter. So he quickly obtained color copies of the KEP just shortly before his FAIR presentation in August 2006.

Wrong again. By then, he’d already had access to the originals and had been studying the high-resolution digital scans for over a year.

Where do you come up with this nonsense?

I always wondered how he (an Islam expert) managed to convince the Church that he should have access, for an apologetics conference, when John Gee (Egyptologist!) didn't get access for the publication of his book.

Gee’s book? You mean A Guide to the Joseph Smith Papyri? The focus of that little booklet was the papyri, not the KEP.

In any case, I’m not quite sure what you’re suggesting in terms of the credentials Professor Hauglid’s brings to the analysis of the KEP, but the facts are that, in addition to his background in Arabic and Islamic studies, he is actually a Professor of Ancient Scripture at BYU. That seems to suggest a little more professional gravitas than your hero Metcalfe’s status as a technical writer for computer games!

Even so, the study of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers represents an entirely new field of study within the broader head of “textual criticism.” Text criticism, until now, has been almost exclusively a discipline working within the parameters described by the transmission of biblical texts. And only a fraction of the methodologies developed for biblical text criticism are applicable to the study of the KEP. For example, no one attempts to determine whether a biblical text derives from oral dictation or visual copying. Everything’s a copy. The questions largely revolve around establishing the stemmatics of the material.

What does this mean, then? It means that anyone—even highly-respected biblical text critics like Bart Ehrman or Bruce Metzger—would be starting almost from square one, as it were, when it comes to analyzing the Kirtland Egyptian Papers. It’s a whole new animal. The issues and questions are unique to the KEP themselves. Consequently, there are very few people, at present, who have any legitimate expertise in terms of KEP text criticism, and they are the few who have had high quality images of the documents. That is a very small group indeed. Fewer than a dozen people in the entire world! In this small group are included Brian Hauglid, Brent Metcalfe, myself, and a mere handful of others associated with Hauglid’s KEP project. I don’t know who, if anyone, Metcalfe has provided with satisfactory images based on the photos he has had for 25 years.

Again, I must emphasize: A professional career as a biblical text critic affords one very little in the way of credentials when it comes to analysis of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers. Expertise must be developed “on the fly” and is, necessarily, an autodidactic endeavor—and then only when said individual has quality images with which to work.

You have suggested previously that Metcalfe is the foremost “expert” in the world when it comes to the KEP. I would argue, in rebuttal, that we have no way of knowing the extent of Metcalfe’s expertise in the field, because he has no publication record to establish either his conclusions or his methodologies. It could very well be that our friendly tech writer (Metcalfe) is everything you believe him to be. But one will search in vain for any definitive Metcalfe stance on the KEP. Even on message boards, he has committed himself to very little in the way of interpretive arguments. Only Edward Ashment has produced anything in the way of formal KEP analysis—and even his record is extremely sparse, although he is the origin of the whole “simultaneous dictation” thesis. We assume Metcalfe agrees with him, but I have yet to identify a single definitive statement to that effect among his many years of posts on internet forums.

Finally, (albeit only on message boards to date) I have provided a concise list of five (soon to be six) specific text-critical findings in terms of the KEPA documents. Those findings have been universally ridiculed by Metcalfe, you, and many of your friends here, but I am convinced of their legitimacy, and I am well into the process of preparing them for formal publication. Say what you will, I have at least developed, articulated, and defended definitive arguments. Others with access to high quality KEP images are doing the same thing. Metcalfe cannot make the same claim. He has promised to do so for 25 years. We have been working on it for a small fraction of that time, and yet we are now very close to placing the formal reports of our analysis in the public eye. This is not some "bluff" or wild fantasy dreamed up by William Schryver; some kind of crazy ploy to attract attention or confuse or stall or obfuscate or whatever it is that you people have dreamed up in your over-active imaginations.

And, notwithstanding Dr. Shades' delusions to the contrary, these things will shortly appear in print. Then the real debate can final begin.

You conclude with this final fantasy:
There must have been a serious "sit down" with the powers on high, to convince them that the KEP situation wasn't going to go away until they could get access to them and come up with apologetic theories to divorce Joseph Smith from the project.

Plain and simple: You have no idea what you’re talking about.
Last edited by The Stig on Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_karl61
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Re: Eyewitnesses of the Papyri and Memory

Post by _karl61 »

This is so strawman - why don't people focus on the text.
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_William Schryver
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Re: Eyewitnesses of the Papyri and Memory

Post by _William Schryver »

karl61 wrote:This is so strawman - why don't people focus on the text.

Why don't you stay out of this thread altogether? You're nothing but a ...

Wait! Don and Trevor must be having an effect on me. I'm going to refrain from nastiness. At least for the moment.

Besides, you're not worthy of my talents. :lol:
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_CaliforniaKid
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Re: Eyewitnesses of the Papyri and Memory

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

William Schryver wrote:You have suggested previously that Metcalfe is the foremost “expert” in the world when it comes to the KEP. I would argue, in rebuttal, that we have no way of knowing the extent of Metcalfe’s expertise in the field, because he has no publication record to establish either his conclusions or his methodologies.

Having lately helped Brent proofread his transcripts and fielded some of his feedback on a paper of mine on the Egyptian Alphabet that has been accepted to the JWHA Journal, I can vouch for his encyclopedic knowledge of the subject as well as for the soundness of as many conclusions as he has had occasion to share with me. Quite frankly, if Brent is Gulliver then you are a Lilliputian where knowledge of the KEP is concerned.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Eyewitnesses of the Papyri and Memory

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Gee’s book? You mean A Guide to the Joseph Smith Papyri? The focus of that little booklet was the papyri, not the KEP.


Uh huh, that one. If you had read the book you'd know that it dedicated a section to the KEP with the first ever "color" photos. That was the only section that made the book worth the price - for apologists anyway. FOr months I criticized Gee for hiding the data in a deceptive manner, and this was while people like Juliann assured me that I was out of my league since Gee had first hand access to the KEP. But after it became clear he couldn't get away from his obvious deception, word came that Gee never really got access to the KEP documents after all, and that he was just relying on those shoddy photos that appeared in his book. It seems teh whole purpose of this stunt was to distant Gee from the deception. He could just say he didn't know any better because he was going by those same photos.

So in 2001 Gee couldn't get access to the KEP.

But in July 2006 Brian Hauglid did and was granted permission to copy the texts in their entirety and pass them along to people like yourself. That's got desperation written all over it. And why did you edit out teh photos during the DVD presentation? What are you trying to hide? If this happened at an anti-Mormon conference you guys would be spitting blood, calling for their heads on a platter.

In any case, I’m not quite sure what you’re suggesting in terms of the credentials Professor Hauglid’s brings to the analysis of the KEP


I just found it odd that the Church wouldn't allow its only testimony-carrying Egyptologist to have access to the KEP, but then later decided to let someone who wasn't an Egyptologist have a go with them. The only difference seems to be a sense of apologetic urgency that began in 2005 after I started pitching a fit (in 2003) that nothing was being done about it. It was becoming painfully clear that Nibley's apologetic was outdated.

[quoe]he is actually a Professor of Ancient Scripture at BYU. That seems to suggest a little more professional gravitas than your hero Metcalfe’s status as a technical writer for computer games![/quote]

That wasn't the point.

Even so, the study of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers represents an entirely new field of study within the broader head of “textual criticism.” Text criticism, until now, has been almost exclusively a discipline working within the parameters described by the transmission of biblical texts. And only a fraction of the methodologies developed for biblical text criticism are applicable to the study of the KEP. For example, no one attempts to determine whether a biblical text derives from oral dictation or visual copying. Everything’s a copy. The questions largely revolve around establishing the stemmatics of the material.


Nearly a verbatim quotation from what I said years ago, shortly after you were advising people to read up on textbooks dealing with "Biblical" textual criticism.

What does this mean, then? It means that anyone—even highly-respected biblical text critics like Bart Ehrman or Bruce Metzger—would be starting almost from square one, as it were, when it comes to analyzing the Kirtland Egyptian Papers. It’s a whole new animal.


No, there are forensic document detectives who would be better qualified to deal with this issue. The problem the Church has is that there aren't any testimony-carrying Mormons who have this background. They can't afford to just give them over to just anyone, or else they might have another Stephen Thompson or Ed Ashment situaton on their hands. I mean how many LDS experts have to be convinced Joseph Smith was a fraud, based on the evidence, before the Church just locks them up permanently?

The issues and questions are unique to the KEP themselves. Consequently, there are very few people, at present, who have any legitimate expertise in terms of KEP text criticism, and they are the few who have had high quality images of the documents.


There is no such a thing as expertise in KEP text criticism. You want to nvent yoru own field of science based on materials you refuse to let anyone else study. that's cowardice. The Book of Mormon's original and printer's manuscripts were published years ago, down to every little detail. But not the KEP. No way. It proves too much. First the Church has to figure a way to "explain" them first. Enter Brian Hauglid.

Again, I must emphasize: A professional career as a biblical text critic affords one very little in the way of credentials when it comes to analysis of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers.


Uh, you and Hauglid were the ones emphasizing expertise in textual criticism years ago. Hauglid was talking about how his "friends" in this field "verified" his conclusions.

Expertise must be developed “on the fly” and is, necessarily, an autodidactic endeavor—and then only when said individual has quality images with which to work.


This is just your way of creating your own expertise and keeping it to yourself. Yeah, like we haven't see this gambit before.

You have suggested previously that Metcalfe is the foremost “expert” in the world when it comes to the KEP.


And he obviously is.

I would argue, in rebuttal, that we have no way of knowing the extent of Metcalfe’s expertise in the field, because he has no publication record to establish either his conclusions or his methodologies.


He has published plenty online and his methodology is perfectly sound. There is no mystery in what Brent intends to show. By contrast, the methodology by Hauglid is laughable. It begins with the stated intenton of divorcing Smith from the project at all costs. And then he insults out intelligence by saying that if the evidence proves otherwise, it wouldn't mean anything anyway. Yeah right, so why be so adamant that Smith was divorced from it to begin with? Because that is what the fence-straddlers want to hear.

I keep going back an reading the original debates at the FAIR boards in 2006, and it just amazed me some of the tripe he forked over as "scholarly." All he did was reiterate Nibley's failed apologetics, claiming the Book of Abraham was revealed before the KEP were produced, saying the Egyptian symbols only "prove" that the scribes thought they corresponded to the translation, etc.

It could very well be that our friendly tech writer (Metcalfe) is everything you believe him to be. But one will search in vain for any definitive Metcalfe stance on the KEP. Even on message boards, he has committed himself to very little in the way of interpretive arguments. Only Edward Ashment has produced anything in the way of formal KEP analysis—and even his record is extremely sparse, although he is the origin of the whole “simultaneous dictation” thesis. We assume Metcalfe agrees with him, but I have yet to identify a single definitive statement to that effect among his many years of posts on internet forums.


And yet their sporadic arguments prove far more profound and compelling than thirty years of meaningless LDS apologetics on the subject.
_William Schryver
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Re: Eyewitnesses of the Papyri and Memory

Post by _William Schryver »

CS:
Quite frankly, if Brent is Gulliver then you are a Lilliputian where knowledge of the KEP is concerned.

:lol:

Perhaps so. Perhaps so.

But, gratefully, the opinions issued by the denizens of this message board do not constitute the court of last resort.
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_Trevor
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Re: Eyewitnesses of the Papyri and Memory

Post by _Trevor »

I just purchased Gee's and Peterson's (not Daniel) books on the Joseph Smith Papyri. I look forward to digesting them. I am a little disappointed by Gee's, mainly because it presents much of the material that we have been arguing over, but with little documentation to back up the argument. I understand that the book has a distinct purpose, but I was hoping for a little more meat on those bones.

One point that I can say I already heartily disagree with is this:

Gee, A Guide to the Joseph Smith Papyri, 25 wrote:Some have assumed that the papyri date to Abraham's day. This notion is supported by hearsay sources (notably Josiah Quincy) who misunderstood what Joseph said.(12)


Not long ago, I posted the following information on another thread:

Trevor wrote:It seems to me that Chandler probably showed Joseph the affidavit from these Philadephia doctors who examined the mummies, since their description of the papyri is very similar to the ones we get on the LDS side. And, the doctors say something about the age of the papyri being over 3,000 years. Might that not have helped Joseph arrive at a conclusion about authorship?

Quote:
Having examined with considerable attention and deep interest, a number of Mummies from the catacombs, near Thebes, in Egypt, and now exhibited in the Arcade, we beg leave to recommend them to the observation of the curious inquirer on subjects of a period so long elapsed; probably not less than three thousand years ago. The features of some of these Mummies are in perfect expression. - The papyrus, covered with black or red ink, or paint, in excellent preservation, are very interesting....

****
Another interesting tidbit from Marquardt (389) is that Chandler had a placard suggesting that the mummies "may have lived in the days of Jacob, Moses, or David".

Now it makes so much more sense to me how Joseph came to identify these papyri with a parabiblical account of some kind. Some doctors in Philadelphia had speculated that the mummies and papyri were at least 3,000 years old or more, and then Chandler comes to town with a handout advertising an age based on Biblical figures!


Both the Philadelphia affidavit and Chandler's own marketing suggest the papyri were of a date not that far off from the day of Abraham. Therefore, I find it unlikely that Quincy has merely misreported something and far more likely that Joseph was following the lead of these "authorities" on the dating, except that he stepped out on his own to attribute a very specific date and authorship.

This leads me to conclude, albeit tentatively, that Joseph Smith believed that these papyri literally were "written by the hand of Abraham."
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_Brackite
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Re: Eyewitnesses of the Papyri and Memory

Post by _Brackite »

Kevin Graham wrote:There is no such a thing as expertise in KEP text criticism.


Amen, Kevin!
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_DonBradley
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Re: Eyewitnesses of the Papyri and Memory

Post by _DonBradley »

William Schryver wrote: In addition to this particular quote you cite, there are many other pieces of evidence that suggest Abraham 3 was "translated" in toto before the end of 1835. Some of this evidence you are aware of. Some, if I'm not mistaken, you are not.

In any case, your confident conclusion seems--in my judgment--to be based on insufficient data.


Hey Will,

I'll be interested in reading your full case for Abraham 3 having been dictated in 1835, either on some other forum or in print.

Chris and I will be arguing just the opposite in our paper: Abraham 3 was done entirely in Nauvoo. I would say we have a rock solid case for this, based on several converging lines of evidence.

Don
_William Schryver
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Re: Eyewitnesses of the Papyri and Memory

Post by _William Schryver »

DonBradley wrote:
William Schryver wrote: In addition to this particular quote you cite, there are many other pieces of evidence that suggest Abraham 3 was "translated" in toto before the end of 1835. Some of this evidence you are aware of. Some, if I'm not mistaken, you are not.

In any case, your confident conclusion seems--in my judgment--to be based on insufficient data.


Hey Will,

I'll be interested in reading your full case for Abraham 3 having been dictated in 1835, either on some other forum or in print.

Chris and I will be arguing just the opposite in our paper: Abraham 3 was done entirely in Nauvoo. I would say we have a rock solid case for this, based on several converging lines of evidence.

Don

Don,

I have been vaguely aware of your collaboration with Chris on this. I think I am also aware of the evidence you are inclined to cite, and your interpretation of it in the process of making the case for your thesis.

I also understand that you believe you have a "rock solid case," although I believe you must consciously ignore some clear indications to the contrary when you so confidently dismiss the notion that the chapter was already "translated" before the end of 1835.

I also believe you are not aware of some evidentiary elements that can be marshaled in contradiction to your thesis.

However, it is not my intention at this juncture to become the "front man" for this particular line of argumentation. While I am conscious of the continuing research of the historical record, and have had lengthy discussions with the person I consider to be the likely candidate to make the case, and even have access to most (if not all) of the source materials that have been assembled, I don't plan to make any formal arguments on the topic. Remember, we're the Lilliputians here. We're a team of little minds working on small pieces of the puzzle. We just don't have, individually, the intellectual scope or stamina to span the wide vista of issues related to this Book of Abraham controversy. So, conscious of our disadvantage in this respect (in comparison to the many Gulliver-types laboring on the other side of the aisle) we are deliberately dividing up the challenge into pieces small-enough to match our respective limitations.

That said, I have a considerable degree of confidence in my fellow small minds. I have had lengthy conversations on this very question with one of them in particular; have heard his recountings of the source material he has accumulated. I am therefore compelled to conclude that, if you believe you have a "rock solid" case for placing the translation of Abraham 3 in Nauvoo in 1842, then you are either unaware of or consciously ignoring or inexplicably misinterpreting the evidence I have seen that seems to place the origins of Abraham 3 squarely in late 1835 Kirtland.

In any event, I look forward to the arguments you and Chris will make. I will certainly read your paper with great interest. But I am convinced, at this juncture, that you are mistaken in your conclusions.
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