Witnesses of the First Visions

[_Nomomo]

Harmony,

And ignore completely that there were no witnesses to Moroni's visits

wasn't Moroni standing there holding the plates for the witnesses?

Sure he was, right there along with the Easter Bunny & the Tooth Fairy.

[_rcrocket]

Sure he was, right there along with the Easter Bunny & the Tooth Fairy.

The essence of Christianity (well, for all but liberal theology) and of Mormonism is the experience of the miracle. The passover, the plagues, the parting of the Red Sea, the fall of the walls of Jericho, the Hasmonean revolt, the virgin birth, the miracles of Jesus, the resurrection are all part of Christianity. The miracles of the Restoration bear witness to the continuing authority of the Church.

To mock Mormonism because of its reliance on miracles isn't going to be all that effective. Believing Saints understand that most of the world mocks the miracles, so we don't really attempt all that much of a defense other than to bear witness to the Spirit. I mean, what other choice do we have? Most here mock miracles with plenty of witnesses.

To mock Mormonism because the dates don't add up, the accounts vary, witnesses recant or apostacize, the leaders are not perfect, and so far, is a sophisticated attack. But, you'd likely point a finger and laugh at Jews entering their temples on the Sabbath for the frivolity of their worship, rather than to enter the fray as to the dating of the Hebrew scriptures.

[_harmony]

Then where are the witnesses to the First Vision and Moroni's visits?

Where were the witnesses to Moses receiving the Ten Commandments? Private messages do not get a witness. But for the Book of Mormon, we have a whopping eleven. Not bad.

First, one must establish that Moses existed. Then one must establish that he received the commandments on the tablets. but really... private messages do not get a witness? What is private about the Ten Commandments? What is private about the First Vision? Those are not private messages; those are messages used to establish and govern more than the person receiving them.

And actually, no, we have men who think they saw what they were told they were seeing. There is no independent verification of the gold plates, since they no longer exist, if they ever did. So what we have is 11 men who saw what they expected to see.

[_harmony]

Sure he was, right there along with the Easter Bunny & the Tooth Fairy.

The essence of Christianity (well, for all but liberal theology) and of Mormonism is the experience of the miracle. The passover, the plagues, the parting of the Red Sea, the fall of the walls of Jericho, the Hasmonean revolt, the virgin birth, the miracles of Jesus, the resurrection are all part of Christianity.

The essense of Christianity is the divinity and message of Jesus Christ. There is nothing else needed. The parting of the Red Sea has no bearing on a life lived by following in Christ's footsteps and living his message. Christ came to fulfill the old law, to do away with the old ways, because the old ways were corrupt. To claim the need for the old ways, after Father's gift to us all, is to slap the face of God.

The miracles of the Restoration bear witness to the continuing authority of the Church.

What miracles? Witnesses don't exist for the First Vision or Moroni's visits to Joseph, so there can be no verification, even though the scriptures demand it.

To mock Mormonism because of its reliance on miracles isn't going to be all that effective. Believing Saints understand that most of the world mocks the miracles, so we don't really attempt all that much of a defense other than to bear witness to the Spirit. I mean, what other choice do we have? Most here mock miracles with plenty of witnesses.

There are no witnesses to basic tenets of the restored gospel... that God and Christ have separate bodies, that an angel visited Joseph while he slept in a room with his brothers... there can be no mocking of a miracle, when there is no witness to the miracle. There is only caution. And there is nothing wrong with caution.

To mock Mormonism because the dates don't add up, the accounts vary, witnesses recant or apostacize, the leaders are not perfect, and so far, is a sophisticated attack. But, you'd likely point a finger and laugh at Jews entering their temples on the Sabbath for the frivolity of their worship, rather than to enter the fray as to the dating of the Hebrew scriptures.

Perhaps because the Hebrew scriptures don't add up either.

[_Yong Xi]

Some Christian opponents I have met claim the Holy Spirit has told them the FV did not occur. What does one do when one's witness of the spirit disagrees with someone else's?

The witness of the spirit, as described in John 16:1-15. It can't be gainsaid merely because others mock. I feel badly that you have fallen so far as to be on the side of the mockers. (Rev. 3:16.)

I certainly regret mentioning the witness of the spirit. I try and stay away from such argument here; it just exposes me to repeated mockery.

I am not sure how the witness of the spirit could be used as an argument with others. If it occurred as you suggest, I assume it is/was for your benefit and not ours. Your witness exists as evidence for you and no other.

I am not in favor of mocking. OTOH, I am not sure how you would like non-believers to respond to your attempt to establish your personal feelings as factual evidence. I can accept that you believe things based on your experiences and understand that these experiences strengthen your conviction. Can you leave it at that and not attempt to offer it to others as proof?

[_why me]

First, one must establish that Moses existed. Then one must establish that he received the commandments on the tablets. but really... private messages do not get a witness? What is private about the Ten Commandments? What is private about the First Vision? Those are not private messages; those are messages used to establish and govern more than the person receiving them.

And actually, no, we have men who think they saw what they were told they were seeing. There is no independent verification of the gold plates, since they no longer exist, if they ever did. So what we have is 11 men who saw what they expected to see.

You have set impossible limits. In reality harmony, what needs to be established is not that the tablets existed, not that Moses existed, but if god actually exists. If you can establish that, you will be deemed a hero of humanity. Remember religion is guided by faith and not evidence.

And in answer to your second paragraph: Am I actually now on a computer or is it a product of my imagination? If I take this computer away and destroy it, did it ever exist? Or was it a product of my own imagination? And so, what I would have left is me believing that I once had a computer or did I?

Your logic is flawed.

[_moksha]

Which has no bearing on the First Vision or Moroni's visit. A red herring, why me. Why is there no outcry about the lack of witnesses to those two most important events of the restoration?

Wait, I can add some information from my Gospel Doctrine this last Sunday: If God made proof visible to all He would cease to be God.

That tidbit has a bit of an apologetic flair, does it not?

[_Mercury]

The resulting culture clings to this invented story today unfortunately. It is sad to see individuals pour their lives into such a worthless thing.

Hah hah. Do you ever notice that hardly anybody engages with you? Carry on.

Hahhah, have you ever notice that you engage me?

Tool.

[_Jason Bourne]

Some Christian opponents I have met claim the Holy Spirit has told them the FV did not occur. What does one do when one's witness of the spirit disagrees with someone else's?

The witness of the spirit, as described in John 16:1-15. It can't be gainsaid merely because others mock. I feel badly that you have fallen so far as to be on the side of the mockers. (Rev. 3:16.)

Wow. A bit touchy today? I was not mocking Bob. I asked you a question about a something that has been presented to me by others who believe in Christ and the witness of the spirit but believe that the spirit tells them something different about Joseph Smith.

That is it. How do you handle such a challenge? I never have successfully because how can I argue with their claim to a such a witness when I always believed that my witness could not be challenged.

But rather than give a civil answer you attack me personally. Well done.

I certainly regret mentioning the witness of the spirit. I try and stay away from such argument here; it just exposes me to repeated mockery.

Well I was not mocking. If you perceive it as such maybe your skin is getting a bit thin.

[_Brackite]

In the case of the First Vision, believers have the witness of the Holy Spirit Unbelievers do not.

Which account of the First Vision? The 1832 Account of the First Vision, or the 1838 account of the First Vision?
The 1832 account of the First Vision has Joseph Smith stating that he saw just the Lord Jesus Christ. The 1838 account of the First vision has Joseph Smith stating that he saw both God the Father and God the Son. Hence, Two Gods. However, Mosiah Chapter 15, Verses one through five, and Alma Chapter 11, Verses 26-31, Within the Book of Mormon, Contradicts the 1838 account of the first vision.

Here is Mosiah Chapter 15, Verses one through five:

Mosiah 15:1-5:

[1] And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

[2] And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son --

[3] The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son --

[4] And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

[5] And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

And, Here is Alma Chapter 11, Verses 26-31:

Alma 11:26-31:

[26] And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?

[27] And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.

[28] Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?

[29] And he answered, No.

[30] Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?

[31] And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me.

You Can Reconcile the 1832 First Vision account to Mosiah Chapter 15, Verses one through five, but You Can NOT Reconcile the 1838 First Vision account to Mosiah Chapter 15, Verses one through five, and Alma Chapter 11, Verses 26-31, Within the Book of Mormon.


Links:

http://www.lds-mormon.com/fv.shtml

http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no87.htm