Will The Real Jesus Please Stand Up?

[_Nightlion]

I think this is what Christ meant by "many that are first shall be last, and the last shall be first..." and even the "children of the kingdom" may be "cast out", that is, those who lived by "the righteousness of the Pharisees".

Went over to Des Book to check out the two titles named above in my bet. Forget about Robinson's Believing Christ. It is what you would expect from a BYU educator. All fluff and great analogies. No precise experience or knowledgeable accomplished wisdom. I have looked at it before.

I could not find Millet's Grace and Works They said other stores have it. Every title of Millet and Millet/J McConkie is a disappointment.

Richard E. Packham has an iteresting new work. Empowered By Christ or somethng like that. It is a forced, gandy-danced and skreeded effort to tramp modern LDS Authorities in with the real gospel. An unreadable effort on the whole but he waxed somewhat edifying about the gospel between the inappropriate quotes. I love to hear someone at least attempt to address it.

Not writing from any personal experience he can only guess and therefore knows not what needs emphasis. Imagine, only three quotes of personal experiences; two of which are in the Church's early days. The one in 1963 was more gotten up in arrogance than bestowed by power from on High. Even the author esteemed it less though he treated it exhaustively.

Not one personal account from a living/recent GA. Not one! Man! The key of knowledge was lost. Now taken away. Find one today! Why is that so hard?

TELL ME WHERE CHILDREN
ARE THE SAINTS OF THE LATTER DAYS
HAVE THEY WORN THEMSELVES OUT
PLAYING ON SATURDAY

jm

[_Ray A]

Not one personal account from a living/recent GA. Not one! Man! The key of knowledge was lost. Now taken away. Find one today! Why is that so hard?

TELL ME WHERE CHILDREN
ARE THE SAINTS OF THE LATTER DAYS
HAVE THEY WORN THEMSELVES OUT
PLAYING ON SATURDAY

Although I am critical, I'm not on a crusade. I'm not out to redeem Zion, or the Church. I'm just one little poster on a message board offering opinions, and I'm not interested in "steadying the Ark". Isn't this what Jesus advised his followers? If you go to a city, and they reject your message, then move on. No need to even call down fire from heaven.

[_Nightlion]

Not one personal account from a living/recent GA. Not one! Man! The key of knowledge was lost. Now taken away. Find one today! Why is that so hard?

TELL ME WHERE CHILDREN
ARE THE SAINTS OF THE LATTER DAYS
HAVE THEY WORN THEMSELVES OUT
PLAYING ON SATURDAY

Although I am critical, I'm not on a crusade. I'm not out to redeem Zion, or the Church. I'm just one little poster on a message board offering opinions, and I'm not interested in "steadying the Ark". Isn't this what Jesus advised his followers? If you go to a city, and they reject your message, then move on. No need to even call down fire from heaven.

So right. This is just a moving city. You stay in one place the cities come to you. Sort of. 'bout time to go. Certainly not trying to steady anything. The ark is fled. Long live Zion. LDS have lost their Zion franchize.

[_Ray A]

So right. This is just a moving city. You stay in one place the cities come to you. Sort of. 'bout time to go. Certainly not trying to steady anything. The ark is fled. Long live Zion. LDS have lost their Zion franchize.

Mormonism is a very good imitation of Christianity, at least as far as the Book of Mormon is concerned. Beyond the Book of Mormon it has ZERO credibility. And with the Book of Mormon, you still have to pick and choose what "matches" Christianity. This pretentious nonsense about "dark skins", "blackness" and "curses", clearly shows it's 19th century context.

[_Nightlion]

So right. This is just a moving city. You stay in one place the cities come to you. Sort of. 'bout time to go. Certainly not trying to steady anything. The ark is fled. Long live Zion. LDS have lost their Zion franchize.

Mormonism is a very good imitation of Christianity, at least as far as the Book of Mormon is concerned. Beyond the Book of Mormon it has ZERO credibility. And with the Book of Mormon, you still have to pick and choose what "matches" Christianity. This pretentious nonsense about "dark skins", "blackness" and "curses", clearly shows it's 19th century context.

This is why I am burdened to have to witness to this generation. I know things that do not even occur to regular folks in judging truth.

The other day my wife washed all our jeans, hers, mine, and two daughters. She is really good at finding what's in the pockets. But we were rushed and she missed a lipstick, bright red in fact.

All the jeans got spotted with the blood and sins of this generation as it were. My garments were not clean, yet failing to warn the people what I know. This sign did not register with me right off. Ezekiel 3:18-19. I had to stumble on some other matters and feel contrite first.

On my blog, at my site, I wrote how I was feeling done and did not want to go on to the actual fruition of Zion. But rather than being done I have only begun.

The other component needed to complete the realization came after I attempted to use great faith for a miracle I thought could happen and manifest more of God's Stange Act of these days. About an hour into my effort the Lord let me know that it would not happen and why it was contrary to his will. Only a still impression of "given" thoughts.

My misplaced faith has never before been so roundly interrupted. It let me know that my faith was not only important but requried at that same level of intensity, although presently misplaced. Great faith needs to be applied to warning the world of what is certainly at the doors, to deliver my soul. Great! After forty years I am now only beginning.

What I know is how the gospel is accomplished. Not the churchy stuff but of power and Almighty acts of God, intimately so with his newly concieved children. This of course proves many things. It proves God is true. It proves that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Salvior. It also proves that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. This all comes from getting the predicted and promised results from conducting the experiment of the gospel correctly. Then you see the kingdom of God down through time and its proof abounding.

Once this gospel has been repeated in our time everything that denies it becomes absurd. Such is my burden. I have yet to apply my faith in the manner I need to.

[_cksalmon]

Chris,

in my opinion verse 20 from the sermon:

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

supports Paul's teaching that:

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Contra both:

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

I see what you mean. Yes, this is an area that fundamentally divorces the Reformers, at least, from Mormonism. If, as Luther and Calvin, and a host of lesser lights (and Paul!) taught that salvation is all of grace, based on God's unqualified sovereign decree, without qualification, then salvation has nothing to do with works.

Some would twist that principle into an unqualified antinomianism. The Reformers didn't, of course. Their project was involved with demonstrating that God is the unqualifiable sovereign who disposes all things, salvation included, according to his own ineluctable will.

They were a rowdy, sometimes uncouth, bunch. Luther can be an absolute mess to read.

I stand with him as over against the works-based righteousness implicit in Roman Catholicism and explicit in Mormonism.

Yes, I am a dyed-in-the-wool Protestant.

That means, of course, that I find a merely Jeffersonian application of the Jesus mythology to be, at best, dysfunctional. Since I believe the overall, harmonized message of New Testament to be sacrosanct. I believe the mythos to be real.

At any rate, just my thoughts, Ray.

I wish you the best.

cks

[_Ray A]

I think I understand your position/belief a bit better even from that short chat we had on Facebook, Chris. It is one I had previously considered myself. That "works are trash" doesn't mean the believer won't live the best lives they can. Their motivation for doing so isn't salvation, nor "earning salvation", but the natural result of being a beneficiary of God's grace. And if God is omniscient, well he would know who his "elect" are.

[_Jason Bourne]

Sure Ray there are LDS pharisees and there is and has been an emphasis on obedience. Though grace and mercy are becoming more popular topics in the Church. Books like Robinson's Believing Christ and Millet's Grace works! are very popular books. And of course one can read the Book of Mormon and much of the early D&C and get lots of grace and Born of God doctrine. Just read Mosiah 27-29 and Alma's story. And I really like D&C 20:1-30 or so.

LDS Doctrine and scripture has lots of grace and mercy and born again doctrine. And I think I see it surfacing more and more. Over burdened LDS members love to hear about grace and mercy. At times they have seemed starved for it. But we have the rigidity of obey and do and obey and do and endure, endure, endure! as well.

Amazingly encouraging news! I bet $100.00, having never read or even heard of either both nonscripture books cited miss the mark and will not direct a soul to accomplish a real born again experience. So you only need to prove one does. It would be cheaper to buy the books but it wearies me. In forty years of hoping it was so, so far 100% failure. But send up the proper quotes and if I accede the check's in the mail
{.......(fast talking quite voice-over) Limited to one poster and the first one actually read. No purchase neccessary. No requirement that you take the bet and be on the hook yourself for $100.00, strictly a one sided bet.}

Mormons obey a lesser god and a lesser gospel and a lesser law and omit that which is meet for the Father's kingdom and remain under that condemnation of D&C 84:50-59

Here are some links to some of his comments. These ideas are in his books.

http://speeches.BYU.edu/reader/reader.php?id=7054

http://scadsofbooks.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... inson.html

http://odeo.com/episodes/24340270-Belie ... E-Robinson

[_Nightlion]

{edited for proper attribution} Amazingly encouraging news! I bet $100.00, having never read or even heard of either both nonscripture books cited miss the mark and will not direct a soul to accomplish a real born again experience. So you only need to prove one does. It would be cheaper to buy the books but it wearies me. In forty years of hoping it was so, so far 100% failure. But send up the proper quotes and if I accede the check's in the mail
{.......(fast talking quite voice-over) Limited to one poster and the first one actually read. No purchase neccessary. No requirement that you take the bet and be on the hook yourself for $100.00, strictly a one sided bet.}

Mormons obey a lesser god and a lesser gospel and a lesser law and omit that which is meet for the Father's kingdom and remain under that condemnation of D&C 84:50-59

Here are some links to some of his comments. These ideas are in his books.

http://speeches.BYU.edu/reader/reader.php?id=7054

http://scadsofbooks.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... inson.html

http://odeo.com/episodes/24340270-Belie ... E-Robinson

Robinson is a fableateer. Nice analogies but he can only guess at what he has not experienced.