Witnesses of the First Visions

[_rcrocket]

I am not sure how the witness of the spirit could be used as an argument with others. If it occurred as you suggest, I assume it is/was for your benefit and not ours. Your witness exists as evidence for you and no other.

I am not in favor of mocking. OTOH, I am not sure how you would like non-believers to respond to your attempt to establish your personal feelings as factual evidence. I can accept that you believe things based on your experiences and understand that these experiences strengthen your conviction. Can you leave it at that and not attempt to offer it to others as proof?

Nowhere did I mention my own witness of the Spirit. Nowhere have I asked you reckon truth from my witness or the Spirit's witness to me. I am merely restating Christian doctrine, Mormon, Evangelical and Charismatic style.

I understand that you think it foolish and non-persuasive. I am not trying to persuade you that Christ lived and was resurrected. I am merely explaining how Christians come to know that fact.

[_rcrocket]

Wow. A bit touchy today? I was not mocking Bob.

I asked you a question about a something that has been presented to me by others who believe in Christ and the witness of the spirit but believe that the spirit tells them something different about Joseph Smith.

That is it. How do you handle such a challenge? I never have successfully because how can I argue with their claim to a such a witness when I always believed that my witness could not be challenged.

The thin skin is not mine; it never has been on this board. I think if you check my posts I don't lose my temper; I don't get upset. Just because I needle you doesn't mean that I have lost control or had my feelings hurt. I don't like my wife and children attacked, which a few of you have done, but otherwise nothing bothers me.

As to you, the purpose for my post was to explain that when Christians and Christian Mormons explain the doctrine of the witness of the Spirit, folks like you meet the doctrine with derision. And you do mock. Oh so subtly, but you do. It isn't all that significant to me that you do. Don't take offense if it isn't true.

As to your "challenge" question about others "witnesses," I can only say that a witness of the Spirit is meant for the hearer of the word. So it doesn't matter what witnesses others have; if you trust in them, they'll let you down. So it matters not to me what other folks claim as witnesses.

That reminds me of an event in my mission. I began teaching a Pentecostal preacher (like the Mormons, many of them are lay preachers). When I returned for our second visit, he kicked us out and told me that he had burned the book as trash because that is what God told him to do. When we returned a third time, he said that God had given him a witness that he was in error, and that he shouldn't abuse the Mormon elders. He was baptized.

In another event in my professional life, a Baptist pastor sued the Church and the Q12 and FP over frivolous matters involving some claim of libel and copyright violation. I represented those. One of my very young LDS associates asked to meet him. (The associate is now a 40-year-old mission president.) The pastor ranted and raved for four hours about Church doctrine, how foolish it was; how false the burning in the bosom doctrine was; how the scriptures alone contained God's direction and he knew it by the Spirit. My associate waited and then asked if he would simply dismiss my clients without question. The pastor seemed stunned, and confessed that he had a dream the night before that that very question would be posed and that he answered "yes" in his dream. The proof in the pudding of this story is that he then dismissed the church defendants that day or the next. The litigation went on for years thereafter against others, so it wasn't like he was converted.

[_Jason Bourne]

The thin skin is not mine; it never has been on this board. I think if you check my posts I don't lose my temper; I don't get upset. Just because I needle you doesn't mean that I have lost control or had my feelings hurt. I don't like my wife and children attacked, which a few of you have done, but otherwise nothing bothers me.

I have no interest in getting personal with you. Perhaps I misread you. I have read plenty of your posts. My observations lead me to a different conclusion as to how you post but again, it can be hard to tell what someone is feeling through a MB post.

As to you, the purpose for my post was to explain that when Christians and Christian Mormons explain the doctrine of the witness of the Spirit, folks like you meet the doctrine with derision. And you do mock. Oh so subtly, but you do. It isn't all that significant to me that you do. Don't take offense if it isn't true.

If you view my comments as mocking I guess that is your problem. I am not offended at all. I was just surprised. I do think if you think what I said was mocking you are hypersensitive about this issue.

As to your "challenge" question about others "witnesses," I can only say that a witness of the Spirit is meant for the hearer of the word. So it doesn't matter what witnesses others have; if you trust in them, they'll let you down. So it matters not to me what other folks claim as witnesses.

If such is the case what is the purpose of a monthly testimony meeting. Also I can tell you from one of my own powerful spiritual experiences that I had at the age of 17, it came when listening to the testimony of a woman in my ward it a fast and testimony meeting. And yes Bob,I do believe I had a witness of the spirit then and other times.


Really your point above and the other anecdotes you shared was all I was looking for.

[_Brackite]

The essence of Christianity (well, for all but liberal theology) and of Mormonism is the experience of the miracle. The passover, the plagues, the parting of the Red Sea, the fall of the walls of Jericho, the Hasmonean revolt, the virgin birth, the miracles of Jesus, the resurrection are all part of Christianity. The miracles of the Restoration bear witness to the continuing authority of the Church.

To mock Mormonism because of its reliance on miracles isn't going to be all that effective. Believing Saints understand that most of the world mocks the miracles, so we don't really attempt all that much of a defense other than to bear witness to the Spirit. I mean, what other choice do we have? Most here mock miracles with plenty of witnesses.

To mock Mormonism because the dates don't add up, the accounts vary, witnesses recant or apostacize, the leaders are not perfect, and so far, is a sophisticated attack. But, you'd likely point a finger and laugh at Jews entering their temples on the Sabbath for the frivolity of their worship, rather than to enter the fray as to the dating of the Hebrew scriptures.

Here is Part of the 1838 account of the first vision:

Joseph Smith -- History 1:19-20:

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?

Why the mocking of Christianity in the 1838 account of the first vision???

[_rcrocket]

So, you think that when Jeremiah condemned the prevailing religious authorities of the day for losing sight of God, looking beyond the mark, and seeking power that he was mocking God?

[_rcrocket]

I have no interest in getting personal with you. Perhaps I misread you. I have read plenty of your posts. My observations lead me to a different conclusion as to how you post but again, it can be hard to tell what someone is feeling through a MB post.

. . .

I am not offended at all. .

I don't think so. Otherwise you wouldn't be protesting.

Return to the only true God.

[_harmony]

If, as the scriptures say, witnesses are important, why are there no witnesses to the single most important event of the Restoration? Why are there no witnesses to Moroni's visits?

I'm still waiting for an answer to this question.

[_Mercury]

I have no interest in getting personal with you. Perhaps I misread you. I have read plenty of your posts. My observations lead me to a different conclusion as to how you post but again, it can be hard to tell what someone is feeling through a MB post.

. . .

I am not offended at all. .

I don't think so. Otherwise you wouldn't be protesting.

Return to the only true God.

Vishnu?

Thor?

Bob Dobbs?

Your desert space god is one of many personifications of human arrogance.

Which god is it bobby?

[_harmony]

Return to the only true God.

What makes you think he's left the "only true God"?

Don't forget stewardship, Crock. You have none. Overstepping that calls your own devotion to God into question.

[_Dr. Shades]

That reminds me of an event in my mission. I began teaching a Pentecostal preacher (like the Mormons, many of them are lay preachers). When I returned for our second visit, he kicked us out and told me that he had burned the book as trash because that is what God told him to do. When we returned a third time, he said that God had given him a witness that he was in error, and that he shouldn't abuse the Mormon elders. He was baptized.

Um, after he kicked you out and told you that he'd burned the Book, wasn't that sort of a hint that he didn't want you to return for another visit??