A discussion with a recently returned missionary

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

One gold star for the wolf lady for rejecting the gospel of....hey, wait a minute.

I rejected a man-made religion, kindergarten level spirituality, a gospel of fear. It's been its own reward, thank you.

[_Ray A]

So there you have it, straight from the horse's mouth. That's the effect that the Internet is having on missionary work, at least in the United States.

I'm not sure what effect it's having here in Oz, but since you raise this point I might be doing some investigating next week when I'm off work again. Conversion rates here have never been strong, and about 75% of all converts go inactive. The area I live in still isn't a stake, though the Church has been in this area since the early 1950s.

When I joined the Church had less than four million members, and the only information was accessible through the public library, which had a copy of Brodie's No Man. I didn't read that until I was in the Church for more than five years. From '85-'87 I spent most Saturday afternoons at the university library combing through everything I could find.

I'm uncertain what effect the Internet will have on most. Even if it was available to me in 1975 it may not have stopped me joining. Though, I only learned that Blacks were barred from priesthood a few weeks after I joined, and that gave me a very severe jolt (since I was born in a country with a 50% African ancestry). I think that was the only time I'd seriously considered walking away, immediately post baptism. A friend of mine who converted not long after me had "negro blood" and was not given the priesthood. That's how I discovered the ban, because this was not related to me in the discussions. So it's moot whether I would have taken the plunge knowing this. That was the only serious obstacle for me, until '85.

There's very, very little discussion of Mormonism in the media here, and when it is discussed it's always peripheral to something else, like a Mormon politician or someone in a political party, which is also a rarity. (The Southerton controversy was an exception, and events like this are rare.)

This post from Simon Southerton on RFM seems a bit generous about growth since the 1960s. Growth has been "respectable" in larger cities like Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane, but in areas like mine (which is the 9th largest city in Australia, and the third largest in NSW) it has actually been stunted, sort of like filling up a washing machine with a hose that's continually on drain cycle. While the water keeps coming in
it never fills up. The last ward I attended had over 750 members of record, and only about 100-120 attending on Sundays. I suppose one positive about this is that everyone knows everyone else, and there really are no strangers. The downside to this is that there tends to be more gossip.

[_Gazelam]

The internet does have some great information on the LDS church:

Church Growth Video

Celebrity Testimony

Testimony of Christs Apostles

Dramatic tellings of the First Vision

Temple Teachings

Collections of doctrinal speeches by Mormon leaders

[_cj1388]

I rejected a man-made religion, kindergarten level spirituality, a gospel of fear. It's been its own reward, thank you.

Well said. Though I am not sure about the man made part. I would defiantly agree that Mormonism fosters a kindergarten level of spirituality (though I think it was far from that in its original intent). The gospel of fear is what Mormonism has become. If you don't do certain things than the Lord will surely allow bad things to happen to you. Not only allow, but also cause these bad things to happen to you.
On another note, I do find it kind of ironic that certain posters here find joy/humor in talking about millions of people being destroyed by fire (men, women and children, who are over 8 of course). And if their physical destruction was just not quite good enough, they will spend at least 1000 years in hell. That attitude doesn't sound very Christian to me. But unfortunately that seems to be the mindset of any fundamentalist - whether they are Mormon or not.
I personally think the internet will be the down fall of any organization that tries to suppress information. Does the LDS church do this? You read the Sunday School manual and judge for yourself. I am not faulting the church for trying be self preserving. It probably has many reasons for not portraying a more balanced view of its own history. Anyone who loves truth will seek truth out. Though I believe truth can and does exist in the LDS church, I also believe that God is greater than that. He reaches his children in a thousand different ways. I think that truth can bring certain people into the church, but can also lead them out of it. For me, the church just isn't that important, other than an opportunity to serve our fellowman. I know that doesn't sound like a typical Mormon, but I guess I'm really not one of those.

[_The Nehor]

One gold star for the wolf lady for rejecting the gospel of....hey, wait a minute.

I rejected a man-made religion, kindergarten level spirituality, a gospel of fear. It's been its own reward, thank you.

woops, duplicate -- my computer is driving me nuts.

I congratulate you on this achievement but am curious at this point. This is an LDS-related board. What religion fitting those characteristics did you leave? Scientology?

[_why me]

Did you read the entire book straight through and then pray or did you only read certain portions?

What does it mean for the book to be "true" to you?

I ask because it may mean something different for you than it does for me, and I am curious as to your answers to those questions.

I read the book through and prayed about it. I remember knelling beside my bed asking for a witness to the book. And wham it came very strongely. It was not a burning of the bossom or a warm fuzzy.

Now if I didn't receive that witness the LDS church would never be playing such a part in my life. But I cannot deny that witness. At times I envy those people who never received a witness...it is much more easier for them. And yet, when it happened it was a wonderful feeling. And the feeling came again during my baptism. Now all this happened a few decades ago but...it happened.

[_why me]

One gold star for the wolf lady for rejecting the gospel of....hey, wait a minute.

I rejected a man-made religion, kindergarten level spirituality, a gospel of fear. It's been its own reward, thank you.

Well, it has some interesting tidbits for a man-made religion. First, if it were man-made Joe had some mighty fine luck. He finds quite a few people to keep their mouths shut about the fraud even after in engaging in polygamy. Oliver was livid and so was david. But none came out and said it was all man-made. Human nature would have spilled the beans for sure.

And Martin, he left and came back, for ever testifying to what he saw. And Oliver too. And from John Whitmer we know that something resembling plates existed since he related feeling them and looking at them. And then there is emma. She was no loser. She would have spotted the fraud a mile away. But she continued to teach her children from the Book of Mormon even after Joseph was murdered.

Here is the point: THE Mormon faith as fraud goes against human nature. Too many people involved in it not to be discovered during its first 30 years.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

I rejected a man-made religion, kindergarten level spirituality, a gospel of fear. It's been its own reward, thank you.

Well said. Though I am not sure about the man made part. I would defiantly agree that Mormonism fosters a kindergarten level of spirituality (though I think it was far from that in its original intent). The gospel of fear is what Mormonism has become. If you don't do certain things than the Lord will surely allow bad things to happen to you. Not only allow, but also cause these bad things to happen to you.
On another note, I do find it kind of ironic that certain posters here find joy/humor in talking about millions of people being destroyed by fire (men, women and children, who are over 8 of course). And if their physical destruction was just not quite good enough, they will spend at least 1000 years in hell. That attitude doesn't sound very Christian to me. But unfortunately that seems to be the mindset of any fundamentalist - whether they are Mormon or not.
I personally think the internet will be the down fall of any organization that tries to suppress information. Does the LDS church do this? You read the Sunday School manual and judge for yourself. I am not faulting the church for trying be self preserving. It probably has many reasons for not portraying a more balanced view of its own history. Anyone who loves truth will seek truth out. Though I believe truth can and does exist in the LDS church, I also believe that God is greater than that. He reaches his children in a thousand different ways. I think that truth can bring certain people into the church, but can also lead them out of it. For me, the church just isn't that important, other than an opportunity to serve our fellowman. I know that doesn't sound like a typical Mormon, but I guess I'm really not one of those.

I guess you're not a typical Mormon! Not a typical Mormon board poster, anyway, but maybe a lot like the Mormons I used to go to church with, very good people who wouldn't take pleasure in their perceptions of the fate of nonbelievers. I might be a little snotty, but these "tare & wheat" posts are signs of very disturbed personalities.

[_AlmaBound]

Now all this happened a few decades ago but...it happened.

I'm not questioning whether it happened or not - I believe you when you say you received some sort of witness. I'd simply like to explore a little further the meaning behind that witness/feeling.

What I am interested in knowing is if it was only certain parts that you read when you prayed for a witness, or if you read the entire book and pondered it's meaning before you prayed.

I'm also interested in knowing if you already believed, to some extent, that the book was "true," as a record of ancient history, the spiritual content, perhaps both or something altogether different.

[_Dr. Shades]

My experience is that antiMormonism, including the internet, drives people to join the Church because of the questions it induces and the answers and proofs that differ vastly from what is claimed by them.

Your experience differs from this missionary. He says that 25% of potential investigators are driven away from joining the church because of the Internet.