What is a "spiritual witness?"

[_BishopRic]

But my (hopefully) final question is, when one from another faith says something essentially identical to what you just said, and it (the "message from God") is totally contradictory to what you have received...and he is just as, if not more convinced than you that it is from God, what is your analysis of his experience?

I know I'm pushing here...and maybe the only answer is the one every Mormon tells me ("I can only speak for my own experience..."); but it seems that there MUST be at least a subtle thought that "mine is really from God...his is not." No?

If not, doesn't that look like denial?

If so, does it not spark a little curiousity as to how many of other faiths are so committed they give/end their lives for their conviction?

This has never come up. I've never heard anyone describe anything that's essentially identical to what converted me.

I have, and it was disturbing to me at the time.

Mine was from God.

I understand that is what you perceived.

Whatever happened to him is between him and God whether it's a lie, an exaggeration, misinterpreted, or authentic. I don't analyze it. I can't. I don't have the data. I can analyze mine and mine alone.

Probably the best answer possible here. But I also wonder if it is at all curious to you that it (the other person's experience) is at least as powerful as yours.

I also rarely hear of the equivalent of an LDS conversion story outside of it. In other faiths it seems to be and exception and not the rule.

I may have an advantage here...my best friend in my professional training was a Seventh-Day Adventist. His experiences were eerily similar to mine. But I agree that many other Christian Churches don't have that sort of experience...simply because they don't consider their Christian sub-sect to be the "one and only true church."

People have been giving their life for lies since the beginning of time. People have given their life over to stupid causes since the beginning of time. Being willing to die for something is not that impressive

Well then, I guess it should be easy for you to see Joseph's and the many pioneer deaths as "not that impressive."

Thank you for the dialogue here. I mean it.

[_The Nehor]

I understand that is what you perceived.

If I can't trust my own perceptions to some degree then I must remain forever unsure about everything.

Probably the best answer possible here. But I also wonder if it is at all curious to you that it (the other person's experience) is at least as powerful as yours.

I have no way of knowing if that is the case.

I may have an advantage here...my best friend in my professional training was a Seventh-Day Adventist. His experiences were eerily similar to mine. But I agree that many other Christian Churches don't have that sort of experience...simply because they don't consider their Christian sub-sect to be the "one and only true church."

Neat.

Well then, I guess it should be easy for you to see Joseph's and the many pioneer deaths as "not that impressive."

True, I'm more impressed by the sacrifices they made to live for it. Their deaths were kinda incidental.

[_Nightlion]

But my (hopefully) final question is, when one from another faith says something essentially identical to what you just said, and it (the "message from God") is totally contradictory to what you have received...and he is just as, if not more convinced than you that it is from God, what is your analysis of his experience?

The scripture prove all things when rightly divided, as they say.

The only gospel that is recorded is the same throughout. There is no second and third tier gospels at all. Ask the LDS, Evangs, Catholic, whoever, to account for their gospel in all scriptural texts. It must be in all, meaning, throughout the Old Testament, New Testament and for LDS in Book of Mormon and D&C and PGP.

The LDS process salvation is not found in any of them! That is the only gospel LDS people actually practise. They know how to "TALK" about the real one but they are trying to hit a pinata blindly when they do.

When Christ said that you must be born again to SEE the kingdom, he meant that the gospel would be evident from experiencing the gospel first hand and therefore you could recognize it out there in history and in other people who get it right as well.

The standard of the scriptures disallows being inclusive of all opinion as if they have to be equal. If a way cannot carry off the scriptures triumphantly, discard it.

[_Mercury]

If I can't trust my own perceptions to some degree then I must remain forever unsure about everything.

You are a dangerous human being

I have no way of knowing if that is the case.

I guess your powers of Post-observation observation are severely limited by your modified intuition. In essence, your desire for an outcome has overpowered your senses and subsequently your observation of the situation.

True, I'm more impressed by the sacrifices they made to live for it. Their deaths were kinda incidental.

Why is death always not a call for concern with Mormons and other religious fundamentalists? Its as if the lessons learned from the death of others is co-opted in favor of lies, bigotry and avarice.

[_BishopRic]

The scripture prove all things when rightly divided, as they say.

I've never been able to figure out why so many people think the scriptures are so infallible -- since most were written and compiled by politically charged, agenda driven, egocentric men...most of whom never even met the men they were writing about!

But I guess some need something written to base their existence on. I've got a copy of the Cinderella story...I think that's just as historically accurate!

[_Gazelam]

Growing up in the Church, I was surrounded by the Spirit growing up, so for me to try to seperate the feelings of the gospel from everyday life was like trying to help a fish realize that they are in water. If that makes any sense.

On my mission my faith was really shaken. I went up against a minister who shredded me in a Bible bash session and made me question my testimony.

Going back to my apartment afterwards I studied up on the scriptures in question, but wasn't really gettign anywhere. My companion went to bed, seemingly unaffected, he hadn't wanted to go to the appointment anyway and things had turned out pretty much as he had expected.

I was confused and upset, and really wanted some confirmation as to what I was doing so far from home, and if I should be there at all. I decide to do what we told our investigators to do and ask God. I knelt down and offered up a sincere prayer, explainign what had happened and how I felt. I finished the prayer with the simple question of "Is the Church true, am I doing what you want me to do?"

My entire self changed at that moment. The best way to describe it would be to say that it was as if I had been filled up with light, and at the same time wrapped in a blanket. I was filed with an assurance that I was where God wanted me to be and that I was doing the right thing. I returned to my scriptures and they were opened up to me and I could see clearly the answers that eluded me before.

That was my spiritual witness.

[_Inconceivable]

My entire self changed at that moment. The best way to describe it would be to say that it was as if I had been filled up with light, and at the same time wrapped in a blanket. I was filed with an assurance that I was where God wanted me to be and that I was doing the right thing. I returned to my scriptures and they were opened up to me and I could see clearly the answers that eluded me before.

That was my spiritual witness.

After this great experience didn't it just piss you off when you discovered that Smith made up the Book of Abraham, gave out free passes to the CK for sex, the Book of Mormon is still fiction..

So have you gone back to the Mormon God and asked him why he was so deceptive (at best) in his feel good answer to you?

I did.

Don't you think you deserve something here?

I thought so. I honestly felt entitled.

But after about 3 days of fasting (while working full time outdoors in Phoenix in the middle of august), the windows of heaven had already slammed shut.

It took about a month 1/2 to get my health back. I guess I wasn't sincere enough, eh?

I can't do something like that twice. I'm done.

[_Nightlion]

The scripture prove all things when rightly divided, as they say.

I've never been able to figure out why so many people think the scriptures are so infallible -- since most were written and compiled by politically charged, agenda driven, egocentric men...most of whom never even met the men they were writing about!

But I guess some need something written to base their existence on. I've got a copy of the Cinderella story...I think that's just as historically accurate!

Why do you posit questions about religion when you are a spiritual slug?

[_Nightlion]

I thought so. I honestly felt entitled.

But after about 3 days of fasting (while working full time outdoors in Phoenix in the middle of august), the windows of heaven had already slammed shut.

It took about a month 1/2 to get my health back. I guess I wasn't sincere enough, eh?

I can't do something like that twice. I'm done.

Now, speaking as a Master Mechanic of the spiritual, your sense of feeling entitled after buying into every slap of faith you were aware of just does not cut it with God. The world's got you pissing yourself and you turn to God and say HEY WHAT'S UP?

Fasted did you? Of course you did not eat or drink, maybe drank just a drop, but did you fast from doubt? Did you fast from the fear of the world? Did you fast from all the cares of the world? Did you come unto the Lord with full purpose of heart?

You just put on a noble coat of some little penance and figured that it. You can walk away and be proud now.

Satan is not locked up yet. He was clever right in the beginning to lay plans to discredit Joseph Smith. Did you think that he would only try that once. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! He has the entire cadre of learned sychophants, wise men, with letters of patents, Druid (shhhh its a secret. No one can know that academia is the center of the Satanic Secret Nation) eeesh we need credibility so that when we say Joseph did thus and so everyone will be FORCED to bow to our great power. MEH HEH HEH!

Put yourself in the Lord's shoes/sandels/shods. You turn your back on him and run out the doors kicking and shittin' for three days and he HAS to answer you or ELSE?

You have simply chosen a new master, the fear of the world. Scaredycats want everyone else to piss themselves as well. No way.

[_Inconceivable]

Night Lion,

You didn't reply to me about your wife's healing incident.