The topic of Worth

[_Mercury]

What is Value?

What does ones involvement in certain social obligations merit? How much is ones money and time worth?

Taxes for instance:

The value of my time is dependent on the amount of taxes I am charged and still remain good with the books of the US Govt. This gives me certain privileges such as being able to enjoy the life I have been accustomed to.

Tithing, for a family that earns 80k a year is enough to generate 8000$USD worth of income for the LDS church. Notice how I didn't say ward. The money goes "up-line" to the LDS church/Intellectual Reserve/Corp. of the president/etc.

That means this family is giving up the equivalent of one new car every three years, an entry level house in the midwest every 12 years or several insurance policies every year. Tithing is a large bill for your average middle class family.

Think about it! if the family earns 150k a year you could buy a car every year with the money they donate.

Its sad really, to see so many people getting rich off of building contracts, church owned farms, contractors at the mall and other various services that dwarf the spending directly affecting those who give and give and give.

[_Gazelam]

Why do you pretend to not know where the money goes?

1) It funds missions, including 52,494 missionaries in the field and 6,470 Humanitarian Service missionaries.

2) It built the new Church Historical Library that just opened

3) It funds the new Mormon Radio channel

4) It maintains 129 Temples and oversees numerous Construction projects

5) It maintains meeting houses for 28,109 congegations

Do you believe all of these things are done with faith and magic fairy dust? Construction and maintenance and living facilities all cost money.

[_Mercury]

Why do you pretend to not know where the money goes?

1) It funds missions, including 52,494 missionaries in the field and 6,470 Humanitarian Service missionaries.

2) It built the new Church Historical Library that just opened

3) It funds the new Mormon Radio channel

4) It maintains 129 Temples and oversees numerous Construction projects

5) It maintains meeting houses for 28,109 congegations

Do you believe all of these things are done with faith and magic fairy dust? Construction and maintenance and living facilities all cost money.

Lets look at the typical income of a Las Vegas ward:
Average household income: 50k. Low estimate, average active, tithe paying households in a ward: 25.

That means, per year on a very lower middle class average a ward rakes in 125k for MormonCorp.

Damn, and that's a low figure. What of the well to do wards that pull in more than a million dollars?! It does not balance out and it does not make financial sense. There is missing money Gaz, face it. People are getting rich off of the fat of mormonland.

Maintenance of buildings is done by volunteers. Buildings are paid for and have no mortgage. The bank handling the real estate is owned by the LDS church. Everywhere within your argument are holes. The missionary stat is bull, as that is an extra expense incurred usually by the missionaries parents, which is another vector for fleecing.

[_Gazelam]

Merc.

The missionary stat is bull, as that is an extra expense incurred usually by the missionaries parents, which is another vector for fleecing.

I think the current payment for a mission is $500.00 a month. that's if the boy gos to Japan or Africa, the payment is the same and the money averaged out to who needs what. Do you think that really covers the cost?

How much does a Temple cost? How much do all of these new buildings cost?

[_Jersey Girl]

Damn, and that's a low figure. What of the well to do wards that pull in more than a million dollars?! It does not balance out and it does not make financial sense. There is missing money Gaz, face it. People are getting rich off of the fat of mormonland.

I'm trying to understand your point, Mercury. What doesn't balance out?

[_Mercury]

Damn, and that's a low figure. What of the well to do wards that pull in more than a million dollars?! It does not balance out and it does not make financial sense. There is missing money Gaz, face it. People are getting rich off of the fat of mormonland.

I'm trying to understand your point, Mercury. What doesn't balance out?

A building that is paid for does not cost the minimum return from a ward. Do the math.

[_quaker]

Figure in utilities, property maintenance, initial investment, etc..

The 3-4 million to purchase the property and construct the chapel in the first place didn't come from nowhere.

Attend some established Catholic or protestant Churches comparable to local LDS wards and ask for their yearly revenue statements. I attended a local Catholic parish the other week and they handed out their income/expense overview. It was a Saturday night mass but there were no more than 100 in attendance. Their income was in excess of 220,000$. You`ll find that their expenses are typically in the hundreds of thousands, all things included. In this case there were more expenses than there was income. They have a clergy cost, but their income is also not used to subsidize smaller congregations in poorer parts of the world. Maybe those things offset one another.

But for your information a weaker, poorer ward in Canada that might average 100-110 in attendance will probably have tithing receipts in excess of 125,000$/year. In Canada in 2007, for example, the total tithing/monthly missionary payments was over 140,000,000. For just over 500 wards and branches that is an average of 280,000 per unit. Many of the branches are tiny with only 40-50 active members. Even if that number will probably decrease substantially back to pre-2006 levels of 115,000,000 then you still have 230,000$ per unit.

That is just fyi.

[_Inconceivable]

Let's talk about the character of Jesus' bride:

Referring to the astronomic maintenance costs of properties that sport basketball courts:

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and thieves break through and steal;
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 13:19 - 21)

Where is the Mormon church's heart?

For what purpose ought a True Follower of Christ give?
For what purpose ought Christ's church alocate it's riches?

18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.
19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.
(Book of Mormon | Jacob 2:16 - 20)

Are buildings and vast property holdings necessary to feed and clothe, liberate the captive, administer relief?

Is a building even necessary?
What if Christ's church didn't have a building?

5 ..they have cast us out of our synagogues .. and we have no place to worship our God; and behold, what shall we do?
9 Behold thy brother hath said, What shall we do?—for we are cast out of our synagogues, that we cannot worship our God.
10 Behold I say unto you, do ye suppose that ye cannot worship God save it be in your synagogues only?
11 And moreover, I would ask, do ye suppose that ye must not worship God only once in a week?

(Book of Mormon | Alma 32:5 - 11)

Is it about Christ or is it about something else - mingled with scripture?
So who is it that really guides this church?

[_Inconceivable]

Quaker,

I appreciate your comparison, however, we are talking apples and oranges:

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Shouldn't one expect a little more from the only true church? What a mockery of divine revelation when a Mormon God cannot do any better than a church of the devil?

(to do all that whoring and still come under budget!)

Of course, maybe Nephi may not be describing the Mormon church. The Mormon church has vast holdings for it's size:

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 14:9 - 12)

[_Jason Bourne]

Its sad really, to see so many people getting rich off of building contracts, church owned farms, contractors at the mall and other various services that dwarf the spending directly affecting those who give and give and give.

I know this it your per issue Merc. But you have yet to demonstrate that there are persons living hi on the hog. The Church owns income consuming assets in the form of Church's and temples. They are expensive to build and maintain. Our building that is stake center sized, for one ward, was over 3 Million after all was said and done. SLC paid all of that. They also maintain it, heat it, pay the electric and so on. My guess is that is about $40,000 per year just for utilities. But as you know that Church owns thousands and thousands of these buildings as well as hundreds of temples. All income consuming assets.

Wards also receive and annual budget allocation for activities, and while not significant for most wards, it adds up.

The Church also provided millions of lesson manuals and other materials, some of which a ward may get a nominal charge to their budget but it is nowhere near the cost of the materials.

But I can say that after maybe 15 years or so on the building my ward is in we will have paid tithing to cover the initial cost and maybe the utilities and up keep as well.

Still, the Church is one body. Members are ok with their tithing going else where in the world to assist less wealthy wards. If my medium income ward generates $300,000 per year for tithing how much do you think one in Brazil of Nigeria generates?