Joseph Smith's ability to memorize lengthy sections of text

[_ktallamigo]

William Law also said that Joseph had a "wonderful memory." I believe he said this in an interview that is on Uncle Dale's website.

Well, that does it then. He had a wonderful memory. I suppose that I can have a wonderful memory too. But that doesn't mean I can memorize and recite a book from a hat.

But I can remember a name.

Students at our local high school have been caught hiding crib notes in their hats and cheating on tests. This has led to a "no hat" rule in the classroom.

Maybe they got the idea from Joseph Smith?

[_ktallamigo]

In 1844 he was crowned King of the world -- vice-gerent of Jesus Christ upon earth --
the master of the Political Kingdom of God -- the stone uncut by human hands from the mountain.

He was Lieutenant General in what was then a division of the U.S. Army reserves -- the highest
ranking officer in the country and commander of more men under arms than any general other
than Winfield Scott.

In terms of land and property held as sole trustee-in-trust, he was the richest man in Illinois.

He was the holder of the keys to the last dispensation of the gospel, chosen to judge the
quick and the dead.

Immediately after his death he was "mingling with gods" in order to "plan for his brethren."

Are you saying that, had Smith possessed a better memory, he would have become something
FAR GREATER than all of that?

All he had to do was bend a finger in 1837 and two of his bodyguards ran off to assassinate
Grandison Newell. All he had to do was bend a finger to obtain all the women he wanted in bed.
All he had to do was bend a finger to have Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and David Whitmer
cast into eternal darkness and the buffetings of Satan.

Are you saying that, had Smith possessed a better memory, he would have become something
FAR GREATER than all of that?

Today you practically worship him as being the most highly exalted human being of earthly origins,
standing closer to Jesus Christ than Adam, Eve, Moses, or Elijah.

Are you saying that, had Smith possessed a better memory, he would have become something
FAR GREATER than all of that?

????

yeah, Why Me.

Why take your show on the road and be a circus freak when you can accomplish all of the above? King of the World!!!!

[_why me]

Students at our local high school have been caught hiding crib notes in their hats and cheating on tests. This has led to a "no hat" rule in the classroom.

Maybe they got the idea from Joseph Smith?

Well, cheat notes is not the same as reciting from memory a book that was given to you by sidney or written by you on manucript, memorized, and recited to a scribe while your head is in your hat.

[_Jersey Girl]

Students at our local high school have been caught hiding crib notes in their hats and cheating on tests. This has led to a "no hat" rule in the classroom.

Maybe they got the idea from Joseph Smith?

Well, cheat notes is not the same as reciting from memory a book that was given to you by sidney or written by you on manucript, memorized, and recited to a scribe while your head is in your hat.

In terms of the length of the Spalding ms, how many words are we talking about, why me?

[_Roger]

Walmart:

I have no idea if he had a good memory or not. It makes no difference to me.

Well then your previous ridicule seems to have lost some luster in light of this. The fact remains that people you trust (and some you don't) claimed he had a pretty decent memory, and if he did--which you freely admit you don't know one way or the other--it would certainly have come in handy when it came time to put the head in the hat.

To believe that he had a talent to memorize a book from a manucript and stick his head in a hat to recite it seems rather unbelieveable.

I agree. So is quantum physics. I don't think Chris Angel can really pass a cell phone through a bottle... but it sure looks like he does. But again, you oversimplify. Smith would not have had to memorize the entire "book" in one sitting. Even at the so-called "rapid-fire" pace he only dictacted around 8 pages per day. Not all of this would have to be word for word verbatim either. But even THIS is too simplified. I think direct plagiarism was employed in addition to whatever portions may have been dictated. The question is: did Smith memorize lengthy sections of the King James Bible or did someone merely copy them?

And if he had this talent, he should have developed it and made a fortune from it.

Well I think Dale has adequately shown that he did indeed develop it and was certainly on the way to making himself King of the world.

And then, to assume that sidney wrote the Book of Mormon and then have smith memorize it and stick his head in a hat to recite it from memory, seems supernatural to be sure.

The question is: which "supernatural" explanation best explains the data? Vogel, Metcalf, Brodie, etc. think that ascribing extraordinary abilities to Joseph Smith makes the best sense. You agree with me that for Smith to have pulled something like that off would indeed make him pretty extraordinary. Therefore you reject that idea and attribute it to God. My question, then, in light of that, is how do you account for the repeated grammatical errors in the 1830 text?

[_why me]

yeah, Why Me.

Why take your show on the road and be a circus freak when you can accomplish all of the above? King of the World!!!!

Yea, tar and feathered, chased out of town often, persecuted, threatened, not a pot to piss in, helping members, building cities, losing money in investments, imprisoned for treason, finally killed by a mob with his brother.

And as emma exclaimed: Mormonism brought too much pain for her and her family.

[_why me]

Walmart:

The question is: which "supernatural" explanation best explains the data? Vogel, Metcalf, Brodie, etc. think that ascribing extraordinary abilities to Joseph Smith makes the best sense. You agree with me that for Smith to have pulled something like that off would indeed make him pretty extraordinary. Therefore you reject that idea and attribute it to God. My question, then, in light of that, is how do you account for the repeated grammatical errors in the 1830 text?

Critics need one theory, stick to it, and try to make a touch down. As it is, the critics are not united except in their belief that Joseph Smith was a fraud. They have more theories than Einstein but not as smart.

Fact: Joseph Smith was not that extraordinary. He was a moneydigger when young, his father was a nobody as was his family. He showed no superhuman talent, poor in business, poor in journal writing, not much thought of by his father in law.

And about the errors:

http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/B ... itics.html

And here is something from the Ensign:

http://library.LDS.org/nxt/gateway.dll/ ... Mormon.htm

[_why me]

In terms of the length of the Spalding ms, how many words are we talking about, why me?

I have no idea. I just know that cheat notes to a memorization of a book is quite difficult to conceal. I do believe that one would need at least a few hundred cheat notes for such an endeavor. And even then, it would not help in the memorization process. Here we have Joseph Smith having to put his hand in his pocket to pull out a cheat note, put it into a hat, take the note out of the hat and slip it into the pocket to conceal it. Quite impossible.

[_Mike Reed]

Here we have Joseph Smith having to put his hand in his pocket to pull out a cheat note, put it into a hat, take the note out of the hat and slip it into the pocket to conceal it. Quite impossible.

No it woudn't be impossible. As I've explained, hats with secret compartments were common parlor magic props in Joseph Smith's day.

And for all we know, Joseph Smith could have had an entire book in his lap while sitting at a table, reading it through a hole in his hat. Again... there are many ways that such a stunt could have been pulled off.

[_Roger]

Walmart:

Critics need one theory, stick to it, and try to make a touch down.

We all think what we believe is probably right--more information can sometimes change that if we at least have an open mind. I recently switched from a Smith-alone to a conspiracy model, thanks mainly to information supplied by Dale, Art, Craig and others--and I'm generally pretty stubborn. So anything is possible.

As it is, the critics are not united except in their belief that Joseph Smith was a fraud. They have more theories than Einstein but not as smart.

Not really. As I see it there are two main "theories" (meaning possible explanations) with some variables within each of those two. Certainly it makes the official story seem more reasonable if you can claim there is a mass of confusion among critics, but I don't think that flies very far. What it says to me is that there are at least two very plausible non-divine scenarios in which the Book of Mormon could have come about, whereas the divine explanation suffers (fatally in my opinion) from the highly questionable character and blatant falsehoods promoted by it's primary advocate.

Fact: Joseph Smith was not that extraordinary. He was a moneydigger when young, his father was a nobody as was his family. He showed no superhuman talent, poor in business, poor in journal writing, not much thought of by his father in law.

And as any good LDS will tell you, those things are not all that's involved in measuring greatness. Nevertheless, the person you've described seems to me just the type of person to introduce hundreds of repeated grammatical errors into an otherwise pristine text.

And about the errors:

http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/B ... itics.html

And here is something from the Ensign:

http://library.LDS.org/nxt/gateway.dll/ ... Mormon.htm

With all due respect, I asked how you account for the errors. I am generally aware of how other apologists do.