Toward a Theory of Mopologetics, Part II

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Doctor Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 8025
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics, Part II

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:If an apologist uses the stratagem of name-dropping, then one must consider its context. Is he or she name dropping from having met someone, or he or she name dropping from a mere Internet exchange? The latter pales in comparison with the former, of which, demonstrates the sphere of influence the apologist might possess. For example, if Professor Peterson mentions an apostle with whom he shared lunch, then it’s a given his ability to influence doctrine is far greater than say, Life on a Plate, who, dare I say it, will never contribute more to the apologetic cause than a fawning admiration for Professor Peterson or some benign insight given on a heavily moderated forum like the Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board.


Okay, yes, thank you, Doctor. I see what you're saying, I think, and I very much agree with you. These insights are invaluable to what is, as Dr. Robbers has pointed out, an increasingly substantial body of literature.

I can virtually guarantee after having spent an hour or so this last weekend with two Mormon missionaries the likelihood of anyone mentioning Life on a Plate by name is virtually zero. Why I ask? It’s because he doesn’t have access to the power structure through which he can have his ideas formalized in print, and therefore secure one’s self a place in Mormon apologetic atmospherics.


Once again, I'm finding it very difficult to disagree with anything you're saying here.

Connectivity is the key to influence. Whether one garners that through some sort of familial assimilation or through a tribal affiliation isn’t so important, but it’s just having obtained the accessibility to the Mormon hierarchy itself is the key.


Just for the sake of discussion.... Who would you count as being the Top Ten Most Important Mopologists? I wonder if I could trouble you to write up a tentative list, just for discussion's sake....

Well, look at me. I’ve rambled on a bit too long, and for that I apologize, Doctor. I hope I’ve made myself a little clearer on the subject, and if you require a little more conjecture on my part, please do feel free to press the issue.


I would be delighted to hear further conjecture, Doctor. It occurs to me that your observations have some rather disquieting implications, chief of which is the suggestion that the Brethren are actually doling out orders for the top Mopologists.

Well, here is some food for thought: recall that Prof. Peterson was once called upon to function as an "agent" for the SCMC. One thing that has always seemed....mysterious....to me is the fact that The Good Professor was simply called up one day. Does that not sound rather bizarre to you? Just imagine: you are a Professor of Arab Studies, sitting in your office and doodling a little smiley face in the margins of one of your students' essays. You helpfully caret in a [SIC] in order to make it blindingly, embarrassingly clear that an error has been made. As you smile softly to yourself and congratulate yourself on your expert teaching skills, the phone rings. The voice on the other end is hollow and metallic sounding.
"Hello? Is this Dr. ______?" Almost as if the person is speaking into a voice modulation device, sort of like what Gary Sinise used in Ransom.
"Yes," you stutter, confused at who might be calling you.
"Good. This is ___________. I work for the Strengthening Church Members Committee. Do you know what that is."
You pause. This organization has been mentioned in the news lately. The New York Times suggested that it was formed in order to "spy" on dissident members of the Church. As you recall this information, you realize that the robotic-sounding voice on the other end of the line is still waiting for a reply. "Uh, yeah, I've heard of the Committee," you sputter.
"That's good. You know that the Committee operates under the strict supervision of the Twelve. Right?"
"Of course."
"Well, Dr. _______, I'm sure you're wondering why I called you today."
"Yes, you could say that." You emit an uncomfortable laugh. You notice that your armpits have dampened.
"The reason we've called you is that we need you to drive down to Salt Lake City in order to speak with someone. This person has some questions about the Church. Dark questions. This person's 'questions' are stirring up trouble, both with the person's family and within the person's ward. Can I count on you to help us out here?"
"Sure, of course," you mutter, and the voice cuts you off---
"Good. Be at 1400 South....." he recites the address and the phone abruptly hangs up.

This is pretty much how Dr. Peterson has described this going down: he got a phone call, and *boom*! All of the sudden he's an "agent" for the SCMC. The big question here is: How did the SCMC know that he would make a useful "agent"? Apparently, then had to be aware of his apologetics, and his boasts about testimonies he supposedly saved.

So: I think that this would lend some support to what you're saying. The top Mopologists are "juiced in" with the hierarchy and its various "arms."
.
.
.
.
.
.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics, Part II

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Doctor Scratch wrote:This is pretty much how Dr. Peterson has described this going down.

Obviously, that "pretty much" allows for an enormous amount of fantasy.

The brief resulting melodrama reads like one of those breathlessly overacted old radio mysteries.

All it lacks is a suitably cheesy score behind it.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics, Part II

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Good Morning Doctor Scratch,

I as I sit here gazing out my home’s window onto a thunderstorm drenched backyard, observing my neighborhood’s thoroughly bucolic forest and the hurried goings on by the resident fauna, I cannot help but admit I enjoy witnessing the emerging social science of Mormon Apologetic Behavior. To witness the mechanics as an institution is gently moved, or shifted as it were, from one doctrinal foundation to another, and to observe who influences who and how the social network is formed, financed, and encouraged to carry out its mission is thrilling, to say the least. I truly believe you are, Doctor Scratch, on the cutting edge of this important and largely unexplored territory, and appreciate the contributions you bring to this new and exciting line of inquiry within academia. I am humbled you would ask me for further insight into this matter.

One can clearly see the attempt to template the Mormon apologist (Mopologist, the colloquially understood term to which I will now defer in all its variations) in Doctor Scratch’s opening post. The inherently understood need by a good scientist to quantify one’s observations was aptly demonstrated, once again by our good Doctor. In an attempt to further answer my colleague’s queries I’ve decided to structuralize his template in order for us to better understand what it was that I was getting at. I sincerely my intentions are well received by my peers on this matter.

If I may be so bold I’ll simply call this template the:

Mopologetic Information/Behavioral Observation Template

Mopologist’s Name:
Mopologist’s Affiliations with Mormon institutions:
Date:
Observer’s Name:

Internet Contribution Information:

Internet forum Mopologist frequents:
Number of posts made this year:
Number of posts made sum total:
Number of “Celestial” posts made sum total:
Number of “adversarial or aggressive” posts made sum total:
Number of insubstantial posts made sum total:
Number of “me” posts made sum total:

Mopologetic Aggression Aggregate (sum total):

Number of vulgarities posted:
Number of passive-aggressive remarks posted:
Number of times term “anti-Mormon” used:
Number of persecution claims made:
Number of bans involved in (both personally or executing the ban):
Number of “name-drops” by “real life” interactions:
Number of “name-drops” via Internet interaction:
Number of times refers to academic credentials or achievements:
Notes:

Inappropriate Behavior Checklist:

Make a mark next to behavior observed in order to assess Mopologist “risk” to Mormon Church’s reputation.

- Violates forum’s rules/privileges
- Uses obscene language
- Verbally abusive
- Makes physical threats toward others
- Repeated claims to be quitting forum
- Repeated misogynistic behavior
- Drive-by posting (insubstantial contribution to forum)
- Bullying behavior
- Racist or ethnic statements
- Expressed desire to punish or gain revenge via harmful or deadly means
- Expressed alcohol and other drug use openly
- Expressed sympathy with or involvement in hate groups
- Loss of employment in real life
- Expresses how successful he/she is a la career, personal life, etc...
- Noticeable mood swings
- Other quantifiable behavior observed:

Appropriate Behavior Checklist:

Make a mark next to behavior observed in order to assess Mopologist “real life” viability for Mormon church:

- Able to post without having to plagiarize others’ words
- Joins in extra-curricular discussions on forum without bad behavior
- Posts articulately
- Displays good logic and reasoning skills
- Demonstrates natural leadership characteristics
- Can accept criticism
- Considerate of others
- Good communication skills, i.e., grammar, spelling, syntax
- Cooperative, as in abides by forum rules and is civil
- Possesses good interpersonal skills
- Displays positive values (responsibility, honesty, equality, caring)
- Other quantifiable behavior observed:

Mopologetic Network:

- CES employee
- Personal relationship with Mormon church authority
- Familial relationship with Mormon church authority
- Business relationship with Mormon church authority
- Academic employed by Mormon church within higher institutions of learning
- Received personal counsel from General Authority, Apostle reference Mopologetics
- Moderator of Mopologetic forum
- Published by Mopologetic institutions (FARMS, FAIR, MI, etc…)
- Has personal relationship with other Mopologists
- Has professional relationship with other Mopologists
- Travels on behalf of Mormon church to conduct Mopologia
- Other quantifiable behavior observed:


I do hope that this humble, yet sincere first attempt to simply afford myself and my colleagues a template to gauge the behavior, and sphere of influence of our modern-day Mormon “doctrine makers” is useful, Doctor Scratch. Please feel free to take what you will from this initial effort to organize one’s thoughts and observations. I consider any and all contributions I make to this field, including any posts I make, to be open source and for open use.

Well, it’s off to work in my garden. The rains have let up, and I must protect my vegetables from those pesky weeds that seem so abundant after a good rain! Good day, Sir.

Oh, me! I almost forgot your query. Please excuse my absent mindedness. I will most assuredly provide you with a list of “Top Ten Mopologists” once I have a chance to make my observations and attempt to apply my “formula” to their behavior. One cannot be too careful when attempting to catalogue and quantify behavior, especially in a largely unexplored realm such as Mormon Apologetic Behavior!

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Doctor Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 8025
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics, Part II

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Doctor C.:

This is fantastic. I think that you and I both understand that no scholar is an island, and that good works would not be accomplished if it were not for just this sort of cooperative and collegial attitude. I cannot wait to see your Top Ten list. And by all means, please do enjoy your garden!
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_The Nehor
_Emeritus
Posts: 11832
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am

Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics, Part II

Post by _The Nehor »

Wow, and some people say LDS are out of touch with reality. :rolleyes:
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Brackite
_Emeritus
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:12 am

Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics, Part II

Post by _Brackite »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Quantifying the Range and Method of Attack


Some time ago, I began a thread that was interested in examining the motives which lead otherwise good-hearted Latter-day Saints to become raging, frothing-at-the-mouth Mopologists. The investigation was interesting and fruitful. Perhaps the most important discovery to arise from the collective inquiry was the notion that many apologists are fueled and motivated by negative "bashing" experiences they endured on their missions---a notion which has since been confirmed by Gazelam and Louis Midgley, among others.




Hello Doctor Scratch,

I have also had several Bible 'Bashes' on My Mission for the LDS Church. I wouldn't classify all of them as negative, and in Fact, I would classify some of them as fun and as a learninng experience for me. Even though that I No longer believe that the LDS Church is the one and only true Church upon the face of the whole Earth, I do not really regret going on My Mission. It was a learning experience for me, and I got to meet a lot of interesting People on My Mission. Here is the HyperLink to about a couple of Bible Bashes, which I had on My Mission.


Doctor Scratch wrote:Now, though, I believe it is time to redirect focus once again. On another thread, someone suggested that "Mopologetics" might be lacking in a clear definition. Here, let me clarify:

Mo-pol-o-get-ics n (c. 1997) 1 A branch of aggressive religious apologetics and polemics designed to defend the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I believe that this pretty much sums it up. This would exempt non-bellicose apologists like Richard Bushman, while also being inclusive enough to allow for the amateurs like Allen Wyatt, Kerry Shirts, and Will Schryver.

With this clear and simple definition in place, I think we can move on to begin quantifying the range and method(s) of Mopologetic technique(s). I'd like to start by suggesting that we can quantify and classify apologists along a Kinsey-like scale. Given that the word "aggressive" is part of our working definition, it seems logical that we should begin ranking apologists on a scale of 1-10, with 10 representing that absolutely most hostile, noxious, vicious apologists (e.g., Pahoran would probably top out at a ten), whereas a 1 would be a very agreeable, nice sort of apologist---Ben McGuire or Asbestosman, perhaps.

Here is a sample of the scale in action:

William Hamblin: 7
Will Schryver: 6.5
Louis Midgley: 8
John Gee: 7
Daniel Peterson: 9
Cold Steel: 6
Mola Ram Suda Ram: 5
Deborah: 4
Gary Novak: 7
Stan Barker: 7.5
why me: 4
rcrocket: 6
juliann: 7

And so on. Now, I am concerned about the simplicity of this scale. The more I think about, the more I realize that we will need to account for more than just "aggression." We need to analyze the Mopologists' relative education, for example, and their ability to successfully carry out smear campaigns. Then, we'll be able to apply our analyses in really useful and pragmatic ways.



Doctor Scratch, I appreciate Your effort and work here.

However, And:

Sorry, but I am going to disagree slightly with some of Your scale rating here.
Here is Your scale rating and my scale rating together, and my scale rating will be in bold and in parenthesis, after Your scale rating:

William Hamblin: 7 (7.5)
Will Schryver: 6.5 (8)
Louis Midgley: 8 (Agree)
John Gee: 7 (7.5)
Daniel Peterson: 9 (8)
Cold Steel: 6 (Agree)
Mola Ram Suda Ram: 5 (I really don't know who he or she is)
Deborah: 4 (Agree)
Gary Novak: 7 (7.5)
Stan Barker: 7.5 (Agree)
why me: 4 (4.5)
rcrocket: 6 (7)
juliann: 7 (Agree)
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Doctor Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 8025
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics, Part II

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Brackite wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
Quantifying the Range and Method of Attack


Some time ago, I began a thread that was interested in examining the motives which lead otherwise good-hearted Latter-day Saints to become raging, frothing-at-the-mouth Mopologists. The investigation was interesting and fruitful. Perhaps the most important discovery to arise from the collective inquiry was the notion that many apologists are fueled and motivated by negative "bashing" experiences they endured on their missions---a notion which has since been confirmed by Gazelam and Louis Midgley, among others.




Hello Doctor Scratch,

I have also had several Bible 'Bashes' on My Mission for the LDS Church. I wouldn't classify all of them as negative, and in Fact, I would classify some of them as fun and as a learninng experience for me. Even though that I No longer believe that the LDS Church is the one and only true Church upon the face of the whole Earth, I do not really regret going on My Mission. It was a learning experience for me, and I got to meet a lot of interesting People on My Mission. Here is the HyperLink to about a couple of Bible Bashes, which I had on My Mission.


Hello there, Brackite, and thank you for your reply. I could be wrong, but I think that your departure from the Church is crucial here. Also: it sounds as if you reacted in a healthy way to these a "bash sessions" by treating them as learning experience. Many of the hardcore apologists, such as Lou Midgley, didn't react this way. Instead, they felt humiliated by the "bashing," and they vowed revenge. Indeed, they have been vowing revenge for decades now. Obviously, this doesn't hold true for every last Mopologist. But, I do think that it does help us understand some Mopologetic behavior to a certain extent.


Doctor Scratch, I appreciate Your effort here.

However, And:

Sorry, but I am going to disagree slightly with some of Your scale rating here.
Here is Your scale rating and my scale rating together, and my scale rating will be in bold and in parenthesis, after Your scale rating:

William Hamblin: 7 (7.5)
Will Schryver: 6.5 (8)
Louis Midgley: 8 (Agree)
John Gee: 7 (7.5)
Daniel Peterson: 9 (8)
Cold Steel: 6 (Agree)
Mola Ram Suda Ram: 5 (I really don't know who he or she is)
Deborah: 4 (Agree)
Gary Novak: 7 (7.5)
Stan Barker: 7.5 (Agree)
why me: 4 (4.5)
rcrocket: 6 (7)
juliann: 7 (Agree)


Huh, that's interesting. I'm grateful for your input. I'm particularly intrigued by the fact that you would rate Will Schryver, Lou Midgley, and DCP all the same. Just out of curiosity: are you treating all of them purely on the basis of raw, tonal "aggression," or are you also taking into account things like Circle of Influence, Power, and Education?
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics, Part II

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Gosh it's exciting to be able to look in on real science as it's actually being carried out!

This must surely be something like being in the Curies' laboratory as they discovered radium.


.
_Brackite
_Emeritus
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:12 am

Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics, Part II

Post by _Brackite »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Gosh it's exciting to be able to look in on real science as it's actually being carried out!

This must surely be something like being in the Curies' laboratory as they discovered radium.


.



It is, Daniel.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Brackite
_Emeritus
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:12 am

Re: Toward a Theory of Mopologetics, Part II

Post by _Brackite »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Huh, that's interesting. I'm grateful for your input. I'm particularly intrigued by the fact that you would rate Will Schryver, Lou Midgley, and DCP all the same. Just out of curiosity: are you treating all of them purely on the basis of raw, tonal "aggression," or are you also taking into account things like Circle of Influence, Power, and Education?




Hi Doctor Scratch,

I am treating all of them, Mostly purely on the basis of raw, tonal "aggression," and taking a little bit into account things like Circle of Influence, Power, and/or Education.


Thanks, Doctor Scratch!
Last edited by MSNbot Media on Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
Post Reply