Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Uncle Dale
_Emeritus
Posts: 3685
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:02 am

Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _Uncle Dale »

marg wrote:...
the Spalding Roman story is not the one being claimed to have been used for the Book of Mormon
...


As I recall, the LDS "party line" has generally been that Mr. Spalding only ever wrote
one fictional story in his life: that story was re-discovered in 1884 and subsequently
published by the leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in order
to prove that it bears no resemblance whatsoever to the genuine "Nephite Record."

Furthermore, when the Church published Spalding's "Manuscript Found," its enemies
frantically scrambled to come up with some falsehood to oppose the latter day work, and
it was at that time (1886 forward) the the notion of a "second manuscript" was first
introduced. There was no mention of any such second manuscript until after the Church
righteously exposed the "Spaulding Lie."

Has the official LDS explanation of the Oberlin "Roman story" changed at all over the
past few decades; or is the above statement still official Mormon doctrine?

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_Benjamin McGuire
_Emeritus
Posts: 508
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:42 pm

Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

You know, I am looking right now at a curious book, which recently I came into possession of. Curious because it is a handmade book, consisting mostly of newpaper clippings pasted to blank sheets of paper (much like a scrapbook) along with some personal photos and such, the pages of which are all hand made paper, with rough edges (there are occaisionally a cut edge, but only seeming to have been cut to reduce the page size - the pages seem to have been individual and not cut from a larger sheet). At any rate, it was started in 1931, and completed in 1942, and is quite interesting as much of ites content deals with the great depression.

At any rate, one of the more interesting items (at least for me) in the book is a piece titled: "A Sheaf of Similes for 1930" containing a group of short sayings apprently published in 1930 by notable persons (some of whom are quite familiar). And one of those items seems rather pertinent to both sides of this discussion (some of them qre quite cute, some are quite racist, etc.):

"A plausibility is a near-truth, which, like near-beer, has the appearance but not the inherent excellence of the genuine article. - The Rev. John A. McClorey."

The problems with using parallels is that there is a line which is easy cross which pushes us into parallelomania. Verbal parallels of these sorts are always quite weak (as evidence) even though we often tend to see them as significant. The reasons are quite simple - it is a poor method which allows us to accept without qualification all evidence that supports a thesis while rejecting without qualification all evidence which doesn't.

In other words, we can always find parallels. Parallels exist by accident for a lot of reasons. Shared language is one of them. I have, for example, in my private collection a work by a certain early 19th century author named Morris Mattson. The novel is in two volumes and is named Paul Ulrich, and it details, among other things robber bands. When we place this into some context, we might start looking at the parallels.

Volume 1, introduces the main character (and I note that we have two volumes, kind of like with Nephi's writings, yes?):
My name is Paul Ulric. Thus much, gentle reader, you already know of one whose history is about to be recorded for the benefit of the world.
(Compare 1 Nephi 1:1; 26:24; Jarom 1:2; also 1 Nephi 9 and similar passages)

He continues:
I have tasted of joy as well as of sorrow ... At one, moment I have been elevated to the very pinnacle of human happiness, at the next I have sunk to the lowest depths of despair. Still I fancied there was always an equilibrium. This may seem a strange philosophy to some, but is it the less true?
(Compare 2 Nephi 2 esp. vs. 13). And what is the single event which defines the life of Paul Ulrich's Father?
for merely picking up and carrying home his Majesty King George the Fourth, whom Mr. U. assures us upon his word and honor, his father found lying beastly drunk, one fine day, in some gutter, in some particular thoroughfare of London.
(Compare 1 Nephi 4:7-8). Due to this incident "he was threatened with an indictment for treason!" his father, determines upon visiting the United States, and taking his family with him. (Compare 1 Nephi 1:20-2:2).

Ulrich introduces us formally to his two sisters Eleanor and Rosaline. This introduction is to little purpose since we never hear of them again (as with Nephi's sisters, who, once married to Ishmael's sons, vanish).

And, of course, Paul develops a rapid proficiency in Latin, Greek, Hebrew, music, dancing, and fencing. (Nephi was taught in all the learning of his father). And this first paragraph (we are still in the first paragraph of the book) concludes with a solemn assurance that we are perishable creatures, and that it is very possible we may all die which of coruse is reflected in many passages in the Book of Mormon e.g. 2 Nephi 9:6.

Then we get passages like this:
Dame Lawler paused, and turning upon me her glaring and blood-shot eyes exclaimed "Do you think there is a punishment hereafter for the evil deeds done in the body?"

"Such," I replied, "the divines have long taught us."

"Then is my destroyer writhing in the agonies of hell!!"
Compare this, for example to Alma - esp. Alma 9:28. More significant perhaps is the notion of the "agonies of hell" which seems to translate into the "pains of hell" in the Book of Mormon.) After this, things really start to get interesting. Paul Ulric encounters the bands of robbers in and around Philadelphia. Miss Emily Florence (the love interest) explains this momentous occurrence.
There is a band of robbers who have their retreat in the neighboring hills-and this was no doubt one of them. They are headed by a brave and reckless fellow of the name of Elmo - Captain Elmo I think they call him. They have been the terror of the inhabitants for a long time. My father went out sometime ago with an armed force in pursuit of them, but could not discover their hiding place. I have heard it said that they steal away the children of wealthy parents that they may exact a ransom.
For fun, I though I would actually provide a couple of Book of Mormon passages for comparison:
(3 Nephi 4:1) And it came to pass that in the latter end of the eighteenth year those armies of robbers had prepared for battle, and began to come down and to sally forth from the hills, and out of the mountains, and the wilderness, and their strongholds, and their secret places, and began to take possession of the lands, both which were in the land south and which were in the land north, and began to take possession of all the lands which had been deserted by the Nephites, and the cities which had been left desolate.

And
(Helaman 11:25) And they did commit murder and plunder; and then they would retreat back into the mountains, and into the wilderness and secret places, hiding themselves that they could not be discovered, receiving daily an addition to their numbers, inasmuch as there were dissenters that went forth unto them.

Perhaps we should add:
(Helaman 2:4) For there was one Gadianton, who was exceedingly expert in many words, and also in his craft, to carry on the secret work of murder and of robbery; therefore he became the leader of the band of Kishkumen.

And for kicks, how about
(Helaman 11:22-23) And it came to pass that thus ended this year. And the robbers did still increase and wax strong, insomuch that they did defy the whole armies of the Nephites, and also of the Lamanites; and they did cause great fear to come unto the people upon all the face of the land. Yea, for they did visit many parts of the land, and did do great destruction unto them; yea, did kill many, and did carry away others captive into the wilderness, yea, and more especially their women and their children.

The love interest is kidnapped, and not able to raise the ransom, Paul attempts to join the band of robbers to secure her freedom. His initiation into the robber band is a process (which is worth reading in its entirety), has several steps. In one of them, Ulric is led into a room:
I looked wildly and fearfully around-but no living object was perceptible. Before me stood an altar, hung about with red curtains, and ornamented with fringe of the same color. Above it, on a white Banner, was a painting of the human heart, with a dagger struck to the hilt, and the blood streaming from the wound. Directly under this horrible device, was written, in large letters,

THE PUNISHMENT OF THE UNFAITHFUL.

Around, wherever I turned my eyes, there was little else to be seen but skeletons of human bodies-with their arms uplifted, and stretching forward-suspended in every direction from the walls. One of them I involuntarily touched, and down it came with a fearful crash -- its dry bones rattling upon the granite floor, until the whole cavern reverberated with the sound. I turned from this spectacle, and opposite beheld a guillotine -- the fatal axe smeared with blood; and near it was a head-looking as if it had just been severed from the body-with the countenance ghastly -- the lips parted -- and the eyes staring wide open. There, also, was the body, covered, however, with a cloth, so that little was seen except the neck, mangled and bloody, and a small portion of the hand, hanging out from its shroud, grasping in its fingers a tablet with the following inscription:

THE END OF THE BETRAYER.

When he is brought before the assembled robbers, he describes them as:
Their garments were hanging in shreds-an emblem, perhaps, of their own desperate pursuits. Their faces were daubed with paint of various colors, which gave them a wild and fiendish aspect.

This of course instantly reminded me of 3 Nephi 4:7:
And it came to pass that they did come up to battle; and it was in the sixth month; and behold, great and terrible was the day that they did come up to battle; and they were girded about after the manner of robbers; and they had a lamb-skin about their loins, and they were dyed in blood, and their heads were shorn, and they had head-plates upon them; and great and terrible was the appearance of the armies of Giddianhi, because of their armor, and because of their being dyed in blood.

Interesting, yes?

At any rate, we can go on, and on. But to be perfectly clear on the point - I own a large collection of early 19th century literature (it's kind of a hobby for me). We could with relatively few manuscripts, produce exact duplicates of nearly all of the unique 3 and 4 and 5 word locutions in the Book of Mormon. And in fact, we could do this for any early 19th century text. When you use the same language (early 19th century american english), when you cover similar topics (salvation, robbers, wars, etc), you are going to end up with significant overlap. So at some point, we have to question whether or not a list of parallels really means anything at all.

Why would Joseph incorporate these specific elements? What is the intention of the author of the Book of Mormon is using these themes? Is it intentional mimesis? Is he merely drawing on another source for a structure because he hasn't the creativity to come up with it himself? How common are the elements in similar narratives? And what do we do with the differences? If we apply this same kind of criteria to other texts (including those that come after the publication of the Book of Mormon) are we willing to make the same kinds of claims?

This is the problem with this kind of methodology and discussion. Listing parallels may seem quite convincing on the surface - but, as anyone who has done a lot of work on texts and intertextuality will notice, these kinds of parallels don't really mean a whole lot. There has to be a way to gauge significance and relevance. We expect some similarities - even if the texts are compeltely unrelated - so the argument has to be much more specific than to simply say here are some similarities - there must be reliance.

Ben McGuire
_Uncle Dale
_Emeritus
Posts: 3685
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:02 am

Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _Uncle Dale »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:... there must be reliance.
...


True enough. If we were reviewing this situation in a court of law, your point
would be pivotal in our reaching a decision of whether or not any plagiarism was
involved. However, some folks suggest that the two texts resemble each other
only to the degree that any two unrelated documents might show similarities.
In other words, that the resemblances are trivial and due to coincidence.

On the other hand, I have seen LDS arguments against the Smith-Rigdon
authorship theory, and in those arguments the point is made that there is
"some slight resemblance" in the themes and language used by Spalding,
when compared with the Book of Mormon. Therefore the entire Spalding-Rigdon thesis
was built upon huge exaggerations that "slight resemblance" as recalled by
Spalding's old neighbors, when coached by D. P. Hurlbut in the summer of 1833.


Now, EITHER the resemblance in Spalding's writings was strong enough to
make some of his old associates equate those writing with the Book of Mormon, OR else
the resemblances are NOT present, and those old associates were lying
through their teeth from the year 1832, until Hurlbut met with them in 1833.

I cannot fathom how Mormons can have it both ways:

1. That the resemblance is insignificant -- all due to minor coincidences
2. That the resemblance gave rise to the "Spaulding Lie" in the first place.

What study methodology might we utilize, to determine which of these two
answers offers the best explanation of things?

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_Wiki Wonka
_Emeritus
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:19 am

Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _Wiki Wonka »

DonBradley wrote:LOAP, I agree the cave was only seen in vision. But I think there's every indication it was understood to be real and inside that hill...

Don


The hill in New York is a drumlin - a pile of gravel scraped into a mound by an ancient glacier. As far as I am aware, it is geologically unlikely that such a hill could have a cave in it.

I do, however, agree with you that those that described the cave believed that it was within that very hill.
We cannot gauge the worth of another soul any more than we can measure the span of the universe. Every person we meet is a VIP to our Heavenly Father.
President Uchtdorf, April 4, 2010

FairMormon Answers Wiki
_Roger
_Emeritus
Posts: 1905
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:29 am

Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _Roger »

I had this post to Don typed up last night and then my internet crashed.... don't know if it's out of date by now, but ... hopefully not...




Don:

Fair enough. And yet how frequent is it when you add in the factor that people had been associating Spalding with the Book of Mormon (which of course is associated with Smith) since 1833?



??

I don't see how these assertions would affect the frequency of random coincidences at all.


1. It seems to me a bit of a stretch to assume that--by coincidence--an account is written circa-1811 in Ohio in which a modern observer ascends a hill, finds a stone box, uses a lever to dislodge the stone, and subsequently discovers ancient texts; and then in 1838 Joseph Smith writes the story of his plate discovery in which all those elements (and some additional parallels as well) exist and with a very similar sequence of events.

That in and of itself is a bit unusual and--as you say--warrants a non-random explanation.

But then we need to add in an additional factor....

2. The 1811 Ohio account that Smith's version closely parallels wasn't written by just anyone--as we might expect if we're just witnessing some wierd random thing going on. Smith's account doesn't parallel Harry Jones account of finding Captian Kidds' treasure along the banks of the Mississippi. Instead--by amazing coincidence--Smith's account closely parallels an account that we know was written by the same guy people had already been associating with the Book of Mormon since at least 1833--five years earlier.

Maybe after I type this four or five times the significance will become clear. I don't know how to express it more clearly.

One can argue, as, for example Dan Peterson does, that the parallels aren't really significant. I think you honestly see what I see and you disagree with that. You do, in fact, see "parallels." I agree. But you might also see the same parallels if the accounts in question had been written by Joseph Smith and Frank Jones.

The fact is, however, the accounts in question were written by Joseph Smith and Solomon Spalding. In 1838 when Smith wrote his account, E.D. Howe had ALREADY published (1834) a book in which he lays out a clear case that a Solomon Spalding ms was used in Book of Mormon production. Now it's 1838 and for some bizarre reason, Smith's plate-finding account closely resembles a Solomon Spalding ms--but that fact won't be accessible to the public for another 50 years.

This is an amazing "coincidence" indeed.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Roger wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:No. I was expressing a general methodological concern, not commenting on this particular list of supposedly significant parallels.


Oh, my mistake. So then when you wrote:

I see little or nothing significantly "close" in the purported parallels. I really don't.

Then it would seem safe to assume that this general methodological concern that you expressed as follows:

Do you really not see the potential problem of a carefully chosen matched pair of lists that could be constructed in order to make two very different texts appear almost identical?

....doesn't apply in the slightest in this case since you see little or nothing significantly "close" in these purported parallels to begin with; much less something that gives the appearance of being "almost identical." Apparently, by your own reasoning, you needn't worry about any potential problems in that regard happening here, which means that I shouldn't either.

No, I think these (to me) very unimpressive parallels are about as good as it gets, and that, even so, they make the similarity seem greater than it really is.

Roger wrote:If you're not going to move away from the "I just don't see a red car" (when others do) logic, then I can't comment much. Maybe you really do suffer from poor vision in this case.

Or maybe you do.

When A sees x, but B doesn't, it may well be that B suffers from a vision problem. But it's also possible that A is imagining things, or even hallucinating.

In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, very reputable astronomers like Giovanni Schiaparelli, Charles Burton, and Percival Lowell saw canals on Mars.

There are no canals on Mars.

Roger wrote:Since there are people who are at least willing to acknowledge the parallels for what they are,

It sounds, frankly, as if your mind is already made up, and that the only comments you're inclined to appreciate will be those acknowledging that you're right.

Roger wrote:I will remain convinced (until someone provides a reasonable, convincing, opposing argument) that there are indeed parallels there to an extent that truly seems striking beyond the level of coincidence.

I'm not alone in thinking there's not much there.

I'm looking for an opportunity to sit down and re-read the relevant portions of the Spalding narrative and the Book of Mormon narrative side by side, and then, I hope, will be able to muster the enthusiasm to comment on your linked list of supposed parallels. I absolutely will not allow myself to be sucked into the fuller discussion of the Spalding/Rigdon theory. Been there, done that. Not even slightly interested. It has never struck me as a serious contender.
_Wiki Wonka
_Emeritus
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:19 am

Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _Wiki Wonka »

Uncle Dale wrote:
Wiki Wonka wrote:...
Quite a bit more complex than Joseph prying up a stone covering a stone box.
...


Essentially a re-telling of the Royal Arch Masonry initiation drama --
though Spalding gave it an Ohio location and an 1810s timeframe.

For comments on some of the similarities (and shared phraseology) found
in the Times & Seasons Smith plates discovery and Spalding's story, see:

http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/SRPpap04.htm

UD


Dale,

I have a couple of comments regarding the list of parallels that you provide in the link:

"Near the west bank of the Coneaught River..."
MS:001

"near the bank of the river..."
"on the west of the river Sidon"
Book of Mormon:343


This has nothing to do with Joseph's story of the discovery of the plates. You have jumped out of the T&S and into the Book of Mormon in order to dig up similar language about a riverbank. Its inclusion seems to be a stretch to dig up one more similarity, and I think that it detracts from rather than enhances your argument.

(by the way, I think that your picture of Hill Cumorah in 1910 may actually be from a postcard printed in 1908)

"I happened to tred on a flat stone... exactly horizontal"
MS:001

"under a stone of considerable size"
T&S III:771

"Here I noticed a big flat stone fixed in the form of a door"
MS:002

"under a stone of considerable size"
T&S III:771


You take Spalding's mention of two different stones and relate them to Joseph's stone covering the box. Again, to me that seems a bit contrived to produce the desired parallel.

-WW
_Benjamin McGuire
_Emeritus
Posts: 508
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:42 pm

Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Look Dale - I can't help what other LDS argue. I don't accept most of the traditional arguments as you know. So complaining to me about other arguments doesn't do anything for discussions with me about this topic.

When we start looking at early witnesses, we run into some problems. The first is that material is re-used everywhere. Do you remember the discussion I had with Metcalfe over his first witnesses of the Book of Mormon who read anti-masonic stuff into the text? Some of them (and there weren't a lot to begin with) were quite clearly quoting other sources (demonstratably so). One of the clear issues with the stuff from 1832 and 1833 that you refer to is a lack of specificity - there really isn't any reason to believe that they had actually read either manuscript. There is no reasonable basis to accept what is essentially the same argument presented here. And I think that both the traditional arguments and the traditional responses are effectively useless in this case. The same kinds of problems I am challenging were just as likely to exist in 1832 as they do now. Just because an argument has a history isn't itself evidence that the argument is right.

Now, EITHER the resemblance in Spalding's writings was strong enough to make some of his old associates equate those writing with the Book of Mormon, OR else the resemblances are NOT present, and those old associates were lying through their teeth from the year 1832, until Hurlbut met with them in 1833.
There are obvious resemblances. But what you are putting here is not relevant. The question is whether or not the resemblances are sufficient to make the kind of claims that have been made. I and say that they are not sufficient, and I have over the past several years provided quite a bit of data as to why I hold that belief.

So why should we care to compare two scenarios that ultimately have nothing to say. If we want to know about the texts, it is absolutely pointless to talk about comments made about the texts when in fact, we have the texts to compare. It doesn't matter what methodology we apply to your question because that question cannot give us the kind of answers that we want.
_Benjamin McGuire
_Emeritus
Posts: 508
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:42 pm

Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Roger writes:
That in and of itself is a bit unusual and--as you say--warrants a non-random explanation.
Except that it isn't necessarily unusual. And it doesn't seem to me to require some kind of non-random explanation.

The problem is quite simple. You are making a claim that this is suspect - but I want to know your justification for that claim - beyond simply the often repeated refrain of (essentially) "I know it when I see it". The thing is that we can take completely unrelated narratives and find these kinds of similarities. It doesn't have to be this specific similarity - it can be any equivalently complex or seemingly non-random set of parallels. And if we can find this for unrelated texts, then finding them in allegedly related texts doesn't suddenly become evidence that they are actually related. This kind of thing seems (at least in my experience) well within the realm of coincidence.
2. The 1811 Ohio account that Smith's version closely parallels wasn't written by just anyone--as we might expect if we're just witnessing some wierd random thing going on. Smith's account doesn't parallel Harry Jones account of finding Captian Kidds' treasure along the banks of the Mississippi. Instead--by amazing coincidence--Smith's account closely parallels an account that we know was written by the same guy people had already been associating with the Book of Mormon since at least 1833--five years earlier.
The closeness seems quite contrived actually. In other words, you start with the conclusion and hunt for evidence. There is no discussion of purpose or intentions - whatever you think will stick in the argument goes in. What of the differences? Well obviously they don't matter right? In literary studies, this process has a name. It is called parallelomania, and is not accepted as legitimate evidence of literary reliance.
Maybe after I type this four or five times the significance will become clear. I don't know how to express it more clearly.
What you may not realize is that your repeating it won't make a lick of difference. It seems quite clear to me that you have no idea how accepted scholarship addresses this kind of question - there is a well established body of literature devoted to these kinds of issues, complete with discussions of accepted methodology, and so on. Intertextual studies and textual reliance is something that can be approached in far less subjective ways than you are approaching this topic.
One can argue, as, for example Dan Peterson does, that the parallels aren't really significant. I think you honestly see what I see and you disagree with that. You do, in fact, see "parallels." I agree. But you might also see the same parallels if the accounts in question had been written by Joseph Smith and Frank Jones.
This is the same argument I get from everyone. It isn't unique. It's the "I know it when I see it" argument - and quite frankly - you don't know it. You only think you know it. And what you see is only clear to you because you have so narrowly focused your attention on the few points that you think substantiates your theory that you haven't considered any alternatives - and the truth is, it puts you in a very bad place - precisely because we can use the same arguments to claim a relationship between texts for which there clearly is no relationship, and couldn't have been a relationship. These kinds of parallels can easily (and in reality occur quite regularly) between unrelated texts. They do occur as coincidences. Most people don't really care - because there usually isn't some kind of axe to grind.

In any other venue, your argument would be ludicrous.

Ben McGuire
_William Schryver
_Emeritus
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:58 pm

Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _William Schryver »

Ben:
When we start looking at early witnesses, we run into some problems. The first is that material is re-used everywhere. Do you remember the discussion I had with Metcalfe over his first witnesses of the Book of Mormon who read anti-masonic stuff into the text? Some of them (and there weren't a lot to begin with) were quite clearly quoting other sources (demonstratably so). One of the clear issues with the stuff from 1832 and 1833 that you refer to is a lack of specificity - there really isn't any reason to believe that they had actually read either manuscript. There is no reasonable basis to accept what is essentially the same argument presented here. And I think that both the traditional arguments and the traditional responses are effectively useless in this case. The same kinds of problems I am challenging were just as likely to exist in 1832 as they do now. Just because an argument has a history isn't itself evidence that the argument is right.

Hear! Hear!

And, of course, this isn’t just a problem when it comes to this particular topic. It manifests itself throughout early Mormon history. The discussion on the other thread concerning early polygamy is another area where so much of the “evidence” is incestuously derivative.
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
Post Reply