Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

[_why me]

Young women had the itch too and needed it scratched.

You get weirder and weirder. If I were an apologist, I'd be ashamed of you.

At this moment I have the mind of a critic, not an apologist. Critics are constantly lambasting Joseph Smith and omitting fanny's role. We all assume that fanny was asexual with no sexual desire. But it might not be so. She had many children with her husband which means she was sexually active. Now was this activity forced by her husband or was it desired?

[_why me]

Because Joseph was 30 and married, and Fanny was 16 and a member of his household? Honorable men do not give in to temptation, do not step outside their marriage vows, do not give in to lust, no matter what.

And honorable women do not tempt their bosses, but it happens. And honorable women do not chase power with sexual desire, but it happens. Being a woman, you do know the power of seduction and how to seduce a man, if you wanted to.

Are you perfect?

We all make mistakes.

[_Ray A]

At this moment I have the mind of a critic, not an apologist. Critics are constantly lambasting Joseph Smith and omitting fanny's role. We all assume that fanny was asexual with no sexual desire. But it might not be so. She had many children with her husband which means she was sexually active. Now was this activity forced by her husband or was it desired?

Like I said, why me, you are weird. Maybe you need to eat some sacrament bread and get the Spirit back. Even without that I can see just how warped your thinking is.

Do you have daughters?

[_why me]

Like I said, why me, you are weird. Maybe you need to eat some sacrament bread and get the Spirit back. Even without that I can see just how warped your thinking is.

Do you have daughters?

Yes, I do. Look at it this way, Ray. According to the critics, Joseph Smith had sex with fanny and it was adultery. But fanny would need to consent. It was not rape. Now why did fanny consent? She knew that joe was married. She knew emma. She could have said no but she didn't.

And since we don't know all the facts, a critic just cannot condemn joseph. Fanny said yes. The article that I linked to did say that at fanny's age young women were sexually mature and premarital sex was a problem. Why discount the role of fanny?

THe critic argument is quite lopsided.

[_Ray A]

Yes, I do.

So would you feel happy describing your own daughter in the following terms:

Maybe she was hornier than a rabbit and was attracted to Joseph Smith for the power that he had.

Thus, it could have all been [my daughter's] fault.

Back then, young women were sexually active. They wanted some action. Thus, [my daughter] might not have been so innocent.

I mean, just how low do you get, why me? Are you a man, and a father, or some kind of mealy-mouthed wimp?

[_Mary]

She couldn't have taken the 'marriage' too seriously, otherwise she wouldn't have 'left' the relationship, whatever it was, and married someone else (legally I assume)

This doesn't follow. Even marriages taken seriously at the outset sometimes dissolve, perhaps particularly when they are secret, illegal marriages into which 'complications' are introduced.

Don

Don, I havn't had access to the sources that you have had (and am also looking forward to reading the articles you have mentioned), but I would love to know just what this 'marriage' consisted of, if it was indeed an early marriage.

Other than a few secret meetings where it seems likely that 'something' of a consensual sexual nature occurred, did Joseph promise to love her in sickness and health, support her and any resultant offspring materially? What was the long term benefit to either of them, particularly her? The promise of a place at the right hand of God?

If Joseph promised her great spiritual blessings in heaven for this 'marriage' then I can go some way to understanding it, but in terms of earthly blessings of a temporal nature, other than the excitement of a clandestine affair, I can't see much benefit for either of them, and certainly not for Emma. It still seems very, very messy.

If Joseph was going to institute polygamy I'm not sure he went about it the right way if he really was a prophet of God. Do you have any evidence that Emma knew from the beginning? If she had read Jacob 2 she might have picked up on early inklings. The situation is more understandable if she at first approved and then changed her mind, at least it had more of a chance for long term success.

To what extent do you feel that Emma's reactions were the reasons for the clanestine way in which Joseph tended to 'attempt' to practice polygamy. From where I am standing I would say that Brigham despite some disaffected wives was a fairly good example of a polygamist.

Joseph is a whole different kettle of fish, yet if Brigham attempted to put into practice what Joseph had taught, then maybe had Joseph been given the right area to live, and the right 'first' wife, his life might have followed a similar path. Brigham seems to have reaped the benefits of watching the mistakes that his mentor made.

[_why me]

Because Joseph was 30 and married, .

He wasn't 30. He was born in 1805 and you have him having sex with fanny in 1833. Do the math? He was 27 or 28 years old.

[_Ray A]

He wasn't 30. He was born in 1805 and you have him having sex with fanny in 1833. Do the math? He was 27 or 28 years old.

This what I love about apologetics. So let's say Joseph was 27, and Fanny was 18. Joseph was still married. But because Fanny was a "horny toadess", Joseph is excused. Fanny "wanted to get into the action", as ALL girls her age did then, and Joseph just couldn't resist, so Fanny is to blame. She started it all!

Gee, you'd be forgiven for thinking that the angel with the "drawn sword" appeared to Fanny, not Joseph.

Fanny to Joseph: "An angel with a drawn sword told me that I must get it on with you - immediately!"

[_Brackite]

Here is again how Jacob Chapter Two, Verse 30 is correctly interpreted and read:

[30] For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people [To Marry Monogamously]; otherwise they shall [will] hearken unto these things [The Sins of Polygamy].

The Lord God describes what happens when some of the People Hearken until the Sins of Polygamy, Within the Following Verses, Verses 31 through 33.

Here is again Jacob Chapter Two, Verses 31 through 33:

[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.

[_why me]

I mean, just how low do you get, why me? Are you a man, and a father, or some kind of mealy-mouthed wimp?

She said yes, Ray. She could have said no. And that made all the difference. Now if it was forced, well, that is quite another thing. But it doesn't look forced to me. She was working as the maid, she knew he was married and she knew emma. She does have some responsibility in all this, if she wasn't forced. And again, I am taking the critic position that adultery occured.

Now my own point of view is that Joseph Smith and fanny did nothing wrong. It was a sealing and the parents and relatives knew all about it.