Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

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_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

In the first post in this thread, there is a link provided, with a series of parallels. Here they are, with the original comments, and with some of my own.

1: Date of the Finding of the Ancient Records

In both accounts the purported ancient records of the extinct civilized inhabitants of the Americas were discovered within the first two decades of the 19th century. Smith's experience was a three part effort extending over a 36 month period. Spalding's fictionalized experience has no date but it is loosely based upon some actual events during his residence in Ohio (1809-12).

Joseph Smith claims to receive the records in the third decade of the 19th century - but I think, all things considered, that such a nitpick is irrelevant. We might say that both accounts are relatively contemporary, and describe (assuming that the Spalding account is based loosely on actual events) things that occured near the time of their publication. Which means that there isn't any need or reason to see this as some kind of parallel derived from a borrowing of some sort. Rather, the dates of writing place limits on the dates of discovery. And that's pretty common to all accounts of discovery, not to these two.

2: Place of the Finding of the Ancient Records

Spalding Account:"Near the west bank of the Coneaught River there are the remains of an ancient fort."

Mormon Account: "Convenient to the village of Manchester stands a hill of considerable size."

Dale: The accounts for the finding of these ancient records begin by providing the position of the discovery spots in relation to known geographic locations: the "Coneaught River" (Conneaut Creek) in Ohio and the village of Manchester in New York. As is frequently the case for the Spalding story's phraseology, the wording he uses here closely parallels a passage in the Book of Mormon:


I am reminded of the opening of Hemmingway's book, The Snows of Kilimanjaro: "Kilimanjaro is a snow-covered mountain 19,710 feet high, and it is said to be the highest mountain in Africa. Its western summit is called by the Masai, 'Ngaje Ngai,' the House of God. Close to the western summit there is the dried and frozen carcass of a leopard. No one has explained what the leopard was seeking at that altitude." Many accounts of discovery start by identifying a location. This is a rather common theme for such a story. So to find such a detail in both narratives isn't startling, but perhaps expected. It might be more odd, I would think, if such a narrative of discovery failed to disclose some details about the place where the discovery occured. Not only this, but, we would also be somewhat cautious about a narrative of discovery that didn't place the events in some location by using known landmarks. But, that's not actually what's happening below is it? After all, where is the river Sidon?

Spalding: "Near the west bank of the Coneaught River..."

Book of Mormon: "near the bank of the river... on the west of the river Sidon"

This is a more problematic issue for the claims being made here. Since the Book of Mormon text itself isn't the discovery narrative, and the river Sidon isn't a "known geographic location". But, just how unique is this phrasing? This is one of my long-standing complaints with Dale's method. He speaks elsewhere of a "Spaldingish vocabulary". And here he suggests that there is this connection based on Spalding's phraseology. But is this remotely unique to Spalding? Let's look at a couple near contemporary examples:

Haddonfield, p-t., of Newton t-ship, Gloucester co., near the west bank of Cooper's creek, 6 miles S.E. from Camden, 9 N.E. from Woodbury, 144 from W.C., and 36 S. from Trenton; contains 100 dwellings, a Quaker meeting and Baptist church, 2 schools, a public library, 2 fire companies ... (The history of New Jersey, from its discovery by Europeans to the adoption of the federal constitution by Thomas F. Gordon, published by D. Fenton in 1834.)

Second, Carver's Island, near the west bank of the mouth of St. George's River - which flows up to the famous lime-producing Thomaston - offers for the investigation of the antiquarian some very interesting remains. These are said to be the appearances of a very ancient settlement. (Proofs considered of the early settlement of Acadie by the Dutch: being an appendix to the Dutch in Maine by J. Watts De Peyster, published in New York in 1858, p. 6).


"near the west bank" isn't terribly common (by that, I mean I can easily identify a few dozen 19th century instances), but similar phrases like "on the west bank" and the like can be counted in the thousands in 19th century literature. And the parallel isn't exact. Once we broaden the search to include variations something like those in the Book of Mormon, we can quickly come to the conclusion that there is nothing really Spaldingish about these phrases. It's a pretty common way to describe something which happens to be near a river. But wait, that's what the phrase means.
Dale: Both discoveries of ancient records took place within a few years of each other, in the first decades of the 19th century; also, both discoveries purportedly occurred within about 200 miles of each other, amidst the "mound-builder" hills on the southern shore of the Great Lakes. Considering the vast reaches of this planet and the millenia of recorded history, the two discoveries of ancient records happened in practically the same place (in terms of time and space). In order to better visualize this uncanny correspondence, see the figure provided below.


So, let me summarize. Both narratives are written within a few years of each other, and describe contemporary events involving a discovery. This then is the reason why the events described occur within a few years of each other (this, of course, is not surprising, and shouldn't be seen as evidence of borrowing - if on the other hand, both narratives described a particular and not contemporary discovery, we might have something). And of course, both authors happened to live near each other (this coincidence, by the way, isn't questioned - merely the fact that both discoveries happened near where the authors lived - at least in their descriptions). Don't we think that its odd that these two authors, given he vast reaches of this planet and the millenia of recorded history should think to write these narratives at about the same time in the same place? Just as odd, don't you think, that they actually lived in virtually the same place at the same time?

So, these parallels, while certainly parallels, don't seem to have any real significance - and the one point which Dale makes about phraseology seems rather a stretch - particularly since the Book of Mormon text isn't really a part of the discovery narrative. Which is the more unlikely coincidence?

3: The Exact Location

Spalding: "on the top of a small mound"

Mormon: "on the west side of this hill not far from the top"
Dale: Both writers find records at or near the top of a hill. Spalding's mound was either a tumulus atop "Fort Hill" (across the creek from the old Conneaut cemetery) or an ancient burial mound near the hill. Spalding wrote the Oberlin story following his excavation of just such a mound near his cabin on Conneaut Creek. Fort Hill is remnant of alluvial conglomerate isolated from neighboring bluffs by erosion. The Hill Cumorah is a conglomerate moraine left by retreating glacial ice. Smith probably regarded the Hill Cumorah to be either an artificial tumulus or a natural mound that had once been mined to produce secret interior chambers. Spalding also related a tale of a similar interior chamber in his fictionalized hill or mound (see Item No. 07).
First, I have to say that I love the speculative mind reading. But getting past that, there are some real difference in the account. Smith finds his records in a small stone box near the top of the hill. What is at the top of Spalding's hill? Well, a more extended version of the comments reads:
As I was walking and forming vario[us] conjectures respecting the character situatuation & numbers of those people, who far exceeded the present race of Indians in works of art & inginuety I hapned to tread on a flat stone. This was < at > a small distance from the fort; & it lay on the top of a smal[l] mound of Earth exactly horizontal -- The face of it had a singular appearance. I discovered a number of characters which appeared to me to be letters -- but so much effaced by the ravages of time, that I could not read the inscription. With the assistance of a leaver I raised the stone -- But you may easily conjecture my astonishmen[t] when I discovered that at its ends & sides it [r]ested on stones & that it was designed [--] a cover to an artificial Cave. -- I found [--] examining that its sides were lined with [--] built in a connical from with [--] down -- & that it was abou[t] [p. 2] [e]ight feet deep -- Determined to investigate extra design of this extraordinary work of antiquity -- I prepared myself with necesary requisites for that purpose & decended to th[e] Bottom of the Cave -- Observing one side to be built < perpendicular > nearly three feet from the bottom, I began to inspect that part with accuracy; Here I noticed a big fla[t] stone fixed in the form of a doar, I imm[e]diatly tore it down & Lo a cavity wit[h]in the wall presented itself -- it being about three feet in diamiter from side to side & about two feet high Within this cavity I found an earthan Box ...
So yes, there is a hill. And while Joseph's stone box is found near the top of the hill, Spaldings box is found in a man made room, fairly deep inside the hill, in a (relatively) small chamber beyond a second stone door. So, while it is clear that there is a parallel, I kind of question Dale's use of the phrase "Exact Location", since Spalding's records were not found "at or near the top of a hill", but rather in a chamber, at the bottom of a man made cavity cut eight feet into a hill. Joseph finds a stone box, with the lid of the box (containing the text) at ground level.

4: The Finder of the Ancient Records

Spalding: "As I was walking"

Mormon: "I arrived there"

Dale: Both narrations are first person descriptions of the events as told by the record finders themselves. Both sets of records were found by "Yankees," men of European descent born in the New England. Both Spalding and Smith say their respective discoveries occured when each finder was walking up a hill in the countryside. The lone Spalding appears to have been contemplating the ruins left by the ancient inhabitants of Conneaut, and wondering about their history. Smith (who was also alone at this point in his story) was probably having similar thoughts, for he had just been told by an angelic messenger of "the former inhabitants of this continent" (T&S III:753). Likewise, Spalding's fictional alter-ego of former times wonders much about "the ancestors of those... that possess this continent" (MS:033).
I love this part really. Somehow that both are first person accounts by the finder is something particularly noteworthy (really, how many third person accounts by the finder of some discovery do we usually get?) And more of the mind reading right? I mean, where does this fit into real histories? "Smith ... was probably having similar thoughts". And this is really about the best argument that can be made. Spalding's character was wandering and happened on the stone door to the cavern in which he found the chamber containing the box. Smith tells us of an angel leading him to the place. And while Dale suggests that both are alone, when Smith attempts to take the records, he tells us he was prevented. By what? An angel (apparently he wasn't really alone). And of course, when anyone finds an ancient record, we are of course interested in what it means about the former inhabitants.
I refer you back to the quotes from 19th century sources dealing with the phrase "near the west bank" the second of which include this bit of text:

"... offers for the investigation of the antiquarian some very interesting remains. These are said to be the appearances of a very ancient settlement."

Obviously, stirring up some thoughts about the original inhabitants. The two go hand in hand. And we have whole fields of study that try to learn about past inhabitants from their remains.

5: Discovery of the Stone

Spalding: "I happened to tred on a flat stone... exactly horizontal"
Mormon: "under a stone of considerable size"

Dale: Both writers draw their readers' attention to an ancient stone lying horizontal with the surface of the mound or hill they had surmounted. It is the detection of this singular object which leads both Smith and Spalding to eventually discover ancient records buried beneath the slab. In Spalding's case the stone mentioned in his story was perhaps the fictionalized counterpart of an actual inscribed stone of unknown origin discovered near by Conneaut by the first pioneers entering that place.

Actually, this isn't true at all. In Smith's account, it isn't the stone that leads him to the discovery (it certainly isn't the singular object) but the messanger who appears to Smith and seemingly escorts him to the stone. And while Joseph's record is immediately below the stone (that is, the stone is a part of a stone box containing the record), once Spalding's character has realized that the stone covers a cavern, he goes and prepares himself to make the descent into the cave, and then finds the door to the chamber in which an earthen box contains the records. So yes, both accounts have a stone (in fact, Spalding's account has more than one). But, the nature of these stones, their roles in the discovery and such are quite different. Is it really a parallel? I am pretty certain I wouldn't identify it as such. I should also note that in Spalding's story, the stone itself is a text - and this feature is part of the discovery.

6: Lifting the Stone

Spalding: "With the assistance of a lever I raised the stone"
Mormon: "I obtained a lever which I got fixed under... the stone and... raised it up"

Dale: Both narrators are struck by a need to determine what is under the slab found on the wilderness elevation. Both quickly locate a lever (perhaps a sturdy branch) and use it to pry up and remove the strange stone away from its age-old resting place. In both cases the stone must have been too heavy or too tightly lodged to have been lifted with the fingers. Both accounts indicate that the heavy stone cover had been put in place by human hands in ancient times and that the narrator is the first person to look under the stone for a long long time.
Right. All of this is true. Let me proide a small excerpt from the Waverly Novels by Sir Walter Scott (published in 1814):
... he at length proceeded to a corner of the building where a fiat stone lay upon the ground, bearing upon its surface the effigy of an armed warrior in a recumbent posture carved in bas-relief. He muttered to Sir Arthur, " Mine patrons, it is here-Got save us all!" Sir Arthur, who, after the first moment of his superstitious fear was over, seemed to have bent up all his faculties to the pitch of resolution necessary to carry on the adventure, lent the adept his assistance to turn over the stone, which, by means of a lever that the adept had provided, their joint force with difficulty effected. No supernatural light burst forth from below to indicate the subterranean treasury, nor was there any apparition of spirits, earthly or infernal. But when Dousterswivel had, with great trepidation, struck a few strokes with a mattock, and as hastily thrown out a shovelful or two of earth (for they came provided with the tools necessary for digging,) something was heard to ring like the sound of a falling piece of metal, and Dousterswivel, hastily catching up the substance which produced it, and which his shovel had thrown out along with the earth, exclaimed, "On mine dear wort, mine patrons, dis is all —it is indeed; I mean all we can do to-night;"-and he gazed round him with a cowering and fearful glance, as if to see from what corner the avenger of his imposture was to start forth. "Let me see it," said Sir Arthur; and then repeated, still more sternly, "I will be satisfied -I will judge by mine own eyes." He accordingly held the object to the light of the lantern. It was a small case, or casket, -for Lovel could not at the distance exactly discern its shape, which, froml the Baronet's exclamation as he opened it, ...

So, the story of discovery, of the stone, often uses a lever to raise the stone. (In fact, it seems to me that there was a euphamism - uncommon perhaps - in the 19th century about being the lever that lifts). Parallel? Yes. Significant? Probably not.

Should I continue?

Perhaps you start to understand the skepticism (which I think is quite natural here). The parallels are couched in the best possible light. But they don't serve as real evidence of borrowing. How many of these parallels could we find with Palmer's cursory comparison to the Golden Pot? And then there is the literary discussion. Why the need to borrow from such a source (and to borrow so little as to make it difficult to tell)? I love the claim that I get from time to time that Joseph changed enough so as to avoid claims of plagiarism. I see. That could be used on a comparison between any two texts. But for me, this isn't an adequate look - it is superficial, it is artifical, and it is parallelomania.
_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Roger writes:
We obviously have a difference of opinion here. The bottom line remains... I see parallels, Dale sees parallels, marg sees parallels, shoot even Don sees parallels & and you see resemblances! Being the odd man out, Dan can only see "purported parallels."
Well, I think that Dan is making a distinction I choose not to. In this case, parallels themselves are rather pointless if they are accidental or coincidental. You are arguing that they are not accidental or coincidental. I (and Dan) are arguing that they are. Dan's "purported parallels" refers, I am certain, to this distinction.
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Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Dale writes:
All I've got is Criddle, and the LDS experts have concluded that his reporting was "rigged for Rigdon."
This can be demonstrated you know. It's all about the math Dale, it's all about the math.

Ben M.
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Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Roger writes:
I don't have Craig's computers and knowledge, I don't have Dale's insight and patience, but what I can do is look at their arguments and evidence vs the rhetoric here so far and conclude that at least at this point in the discussion one side has evidence and the other is blowing hot air. Frankly, Don's suggestion of common treasure-finding fables is about the only plausible counter explanation I've seen. But I've also seen no evidence to support the idea.
My comments on Criddle's study are still quite publicly available and detail the problems with his modeling (which are significant and make the study far less useful than you seem to be suggesting). You might respond to them.

But then again, you seem to be convinced at least in part because the evidence you see supports what you already knew. Not much critical thought required ....

Ben M.
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Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _karl61 »

I want to fly!
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Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Those cave accounts are irrelevant here. We are talking about two documents and the relationship between them.
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Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _mikwut »

Roger,

I have been listening to your oft repeated coincidence of the Spalding Roman Story not being public in 1838. I am missing the significance. Can you elaborate on the significance of that? If the Conn. witnesses and Howe's book are already known even by the "conspirators" themselves are your suggesting that J. Smith's ridiculous idea to continue to plagarize a text in the face of being caught is somehow evidence?

How according to your theory did J.S. or S.R. ever get the Roman Story to derive the significant parallels you find so significant? That it had been preserved in a trunk and then kept with Hurlbut and then Howe and never been seen by Smith isn't significant for your theory?

regards, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _Uncle Dale »

mikwut wrote:...
How according to your theory did J.S. or S.R. ever get the Roman Story to derive the significant parallels you find so significant?
...



An excellent point.

If the Spalding "Roman story" was safely tucked away in the filing cabinet of
Eber D. Howe and that filing cabinet was handed over to Lewis L. Rice, then
it is obvious that Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith, W. W. Phelps. etc. did not
possess the manuscript to that particular Spalding story, and thus could not
have copied anything from it.

I believe this is indeed the logical conclusion ---> That the similarities between
the Spalding "Roman story" and the Times and Seasons Joseph Smith history,
DID NOT occur due to any copying from the manuscript entrusted to Howe in 1834.

Or, at any rate, the probability that Rigdon, Smith, et al. gained access to
that particular manuscript during the 1830s and copied anything from it, must
be close to zero.

So --- does that conclusion "close the case," and allow us all to go on to investigating
other matters in early Mormonism? I think, that for most of the faithful LDS readers,
the non-availability of the Spalding "Roman story" will truly be reason enough for
them to avoid further consideration of the 19th century authorship topic.

As for myself, I am not so much interested in proving any one theory of textual
dependence, as I am in researching the possibility of a conspiracy involved in
the bringing forth of the Book of Mormon itself.

Regardless of where Smith got the text, is there anything in the early history of
Mormonism that might cause us to believe that Smith did not work alone in
finalizing the Book of Mormon text, and that he did not work alone, totally disconnected from
the miraculous events testified to by the eleven "witnesses?"

By the words "totally disconnected." I do not mean to say that he was living
elsewhere than the Peter Whitmer, Sr. household -- I do not mean to say that
he was not present at the time(s) the witnesses testify to. By "totally disconnected,"
I mean to say that Smith had no SECRET connections/influences in the preparation
of the Book of Mormon text and the testimony of the witnesses. Most particularly, that there
was no secret collusion between Joseph Smith, Jr. and Oliver Cowdery, to keep
back from the public any of their activities associated with bringing forth the
Book of Mormon and interactions with the ten witnesses (eleven with Cowdery).

I would be willing to set the entire Spalding-Rigdon authorship theory "on the shelf,"
(as I did previously in 1982-1996), if I knew for certain that historians were
carefully researching the events of 1823-1829, looking for hitherto unexamined
historical evidence.

UD
Last edited by Bedlamite on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_mikwut
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Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _mikwut »

Roger,

Uncle Dale, (Thank you Dale), states,

I believe this is indeed the logical conclusion ---> That the similarities between the Spalding "Roman story" and the Times and Seasons Joseph Smith history, DID NOT occur due to any copying from the manuscript entrusted to Howe in 1834.


What then Roger is the salient point I am to take from this entire thread? How do these parallels give any evidential support to your theory even if they are to be considered significant, (which I don't think they are)?

my regards, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_mikwut
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Re: Roman Story & Book of Mormon Similarities

Post by _mikwut »

Roger,

I had said previously:

I think those are more clear than the similarities you pose. Of note, Jocker's study whose list of words only include the mundane a, an, if, then, there, were, so, his, her, etc... would not illuminate any quantitative differences of style as is so easily recognized between the two books (Book of Mormon and Roman Story).


You responded,

Not sure I follow you here. Mundane words are used on purpose in wp studies.


First, not all.

Second, the point is the obvious stylistic differences between the Book of Mormon and the Roman Story go well beyond "and it came to pass" which is the attempt of a change in style that Spalding purportedly, on very weak assumptions and evidence, wrote another lengthy romance of coming to America across the ocean. For him to abandon the stylistic writing completely pointed out by Brodie would be silly to surmise.

Finally, the Jocker's study doesn't and can't speak to quantitative differences in style of writing, "purple prose" vs. rhythmical and monotone for example.

Your seeing the pebble of parallels that can't mean anything because J.S. or S.R. never had the Roman Story and not seeing the ocean of difference regarding qualitative means of measuring the Author's writing.

my regards, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
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