Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

[_Mary]

Ray, just found this from Uncle Dale's site.

From: The Morning Chronicle
Vol. 1. - No. 295. Pittsburgh, Tuesday July 26, 1842. 2 Cents.

http://sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/PA/penn1842.htm

THE TRUTH OF PHRENOLOGY PROVED. -- The last Nauvoo Wasp, a Mormon paper, contains Joe Smith's Phrenological chart, in which the organ of "Amativeness" is set down as "very large -- giving a controlling influence and very liable to perversion." We think the affidavit of Miss Brotherton in another column proves the truth of the science of phrenology conclusively.

Mary

[_Brackite]

And I say, without the least hesitation, that polygamy is a total abomination in the eyes of God.

If you say so Ray. But the LDS church has not failed. It has succeeded in bringing goodness to this earth through its members. It is quite strange that such an 'abomination' was allowed by god in a church that claims his son's name. And that church still exists.

It is quite easy to say as some critics do that polygamy was started by male lust or sexual deviations. But its practice did not seem to stress it. And it is not a wonderful compliment for people to hear when their own ancestors practiced it. (not mine). Basically you are saying that their ancestors were perverts.

Hello why me,

It is not just Ray A who says that Polygamy is an abomination in the eyes of God. The Lord God also says that Polygamy is an abomination before Him.

Here is again Jacob Chapter Two, Verses 23 through 34:

Jacob 2:23-34:

[23] But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
[24] Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
[25] Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
[26] Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
[27] Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
[28] For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
[29] Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
[30] For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[[4] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.

There are a couple of more other Places within the Book of Mormon where it states that Polygamy is an Abomination before the Lord God, in addition to Jacob Chapter Two.

Here is Mosiah Chapter 11, Verses 1-4, and Verse 14:

Mosiah 11:1-4, & 14:

[1] And now it came to pass that Zeniff conferred the kingdom upon Noah, one of his sons; therefore Noah began to reign in his stead; and he did not walk in the ways of his father.

[2] For behold, he did not keep the commandments of God, but he did walk after the desires of his own heart. And he had many wives and concubines. And he did cause his people to commit sin, and do that which was abominable in the sight of the Lord. Yea, and they did commit whoredoms and all manner of wickedness.

[3] And he laid a tax of one fifth part of all they possessed, a fifth part of their gold and of their silver, and a fifth part of their ziff, and of their copper, and of their brass and their iron; and a fifth part of their fatlings; and also a fifth part of all their grain.

[4] And all this did he take to support himself, and his wives and his concubines; and also his priests, and their wives and their concubines; thus he had changed the affairs of the kingdom.

...

[14] And it came to pass that he placed his heart upon his riches, and he spent his time in riotous living with his wives and his concubines; and so did also his priests spend their time with harlots.

Now, Here is now Ether Chapter 10, Verses 5-7:

Ether 10:5-7:

[5] And it came to pass that Riplakish did not do that which was right in the sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and concubines, and did lay that upon men's shoulders which was grievous to be borne; yea, he did tax them with heavy taxes; and with the taxes he did build many spacious buildings.

[6] And he did erect him an exceedingly beautiful throne; and he did build many prisons, and whoso would not be subject unto taxes he did cast into prison; and whoso was not able to pay taxes he did cast into prison; and he did cause that they should labor continually for their support; and whoso refused to labor he did cause to be put to death.

[7] Wherefore he did obtain all his fine work, yea, even his fine gold he did cause to be refined in prison, and all manner of fine workmanship he did cause to be wrought in prison. And it came to pass that he did afflict the people with his whoredoms and abominations.

It looks like your Problem is with the Lord God.

[_Ray A]

Ray, just found this from Uncle Dale's site.

Thaks, Mary, I'll go through that section some more later.

There's also more information at The Mormon Curtain.

Scroll down to "Another Mormon Myth - Joseph Smith - A Kind And Gentle Man" as well. Interesting reading.

[_why me]

Yes, you are right. Joseph Smith did not need polygamy to have sex. He could have gotten on his horse and headed to the whore house two counties over.

Some claimed he did:

May 21, 1886, I had a fresh interview with Mrs. Sarah M. Pratt, who had the kindness to give me the following testimony additional to the information given by her in our interviews in the spring of 1885. "I want you to have all my statements correct in your book," said the noble lady, "and put my name to them; I want the truth, the full truth, to be known, and bear the responsibility of it.

Mormon Portraits I

Yes, she certainly was a 'noble' lady.... Sarah had too much hatred for Joseph Smith and anything Mormon to be trusted.

[_Ray A]

Yes, she certainly was a 'noble' lady... Sara had too much hatred of Joseph Smith and anything Mormon to be trusted.

Of course, we all know that all of Joseph Smith's critics were corrupt apostates and downright liars. Not an ounce of human decency in any of them.

You're very predictable, why me. In fact, when you don't have much time let me know. I can write your posts out for you, and then give my reply.

[_why me]

Ray, just found this from Uncle Dale's site.

From: The Morning Chronicle
Vol. 1. - No. 295. Pittsburgh, Tuesday July 26, 1842. 2 Cents.

http://sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/PA/penn1842.htm

Mary

Reading through that link I can see why with such sensationalism in the press about the Mormons why the mobs attacked them and eventually murdered Joseph Smith. Glad to see Miss Taken that you are a fan of such tabloid press. You must also like Rupert Murdock.

[_why me]

Yes, she certainly was a 'noble' lady... Sara had too much hatred of Joseph Smith and anything Mormon to be trusted.

Of course, we all know that all of Joseph Smith's critics were corrupt apostates and downright liars. Not an ounce of human decency in any of them.

You're very predictable, why me. In fact, when you don't have much time let me know. I can write your posts out for you, and then give my reply.

Well, my friend, Joseph Smith was a polarizing figure. They either loved him or hated him. Sarah hated him and she hated the Mormon church.

Furthermore, most of Uncle Dale's site has the history of such hatred documented through newspaper articles. Although he may be the last to admit it.

[_Mary]

Ray, just found this from Uncle Dale's site.

From: The Morning Chronicle
Vol. 1. - No. 295. Pittsburgh, Tuesday July 26, 1842. 2 Cents.

http://sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/PA/penn1842.htm

Mary

Reading through that link I can see why with such sensationalism in the press about the Mormons why the mobs attacked them and eventually murdered Joseph Smith. Glad to see Miss Taken that you are a fan of such tabloid press. You must also like Rupert Murdock.

Yes...Joseph certainly seemed to court controversy. Have you read Orange Wight's short autobiography Why me, it actually gives quite a balanced view of some of the controversies that the early church became embroiled in.

I linked to the article on Phrenology in the Morning Chronicle because it indicates that Joseph's profile became quite widely known in that time period for anyone with an interest. I, on the other hand had never heard of it before, and still find it interesting, particularly if Joseph approved of it.

[_Ray A]

Well, my friend, Joseph Smith was a polarizing figure. They either loved him or hated him. Sarah hated him and she hated the Mormon church.

That isn't really the problem. The problem is that you only see history from one side, and you are totally unwilling (or unable) to give credence to any view which parts with your pet beliefs.

Furthermore, most of Uncle Dale's site has the history of such hatred documented through newspaper articles. Although he may be the last to admit it.

You're wrong. All Dale has done is used primary sources from newspapers and books for documentation purposes. A lot of this information has been known for a long time (Van Wagoner has been particularly good at this in regard to polygamy), though Dale has dug up previously unknown sources. But I understand why you'd choose to call such research "hatred". Even Mormon scholars have praised the Tanners for digging up information they didn't even know existed, but again you'd call such ground-breaking research "hatred".

If you really want to approach this objectively you should be willing to examine anything, to try to get a better picture of the past, and then form your opinions. You have the cart before the horse in this regard.

[_Nevo]

I do think that Joseph had a very good sex drive should we say, but I don't think that is 'all' that drove him. He was much more complex than that.

I think Richard Bushman got it right: "Joseph did not marry women to form a warm, human companionship, but to create a network of related wives, children, and kinsmen that would endure into the eternities. . . . Like Abraham of old, Joseph yearned for familial plenitude. He did not lust for women so much as he lusted for kin" (Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, 440).

Non-Mormon historian Lawrence Foster cites this as a powerful motivation as well: "A variety of factors including biblical precedent, concerns for expanding kinship ties in a socially chaotic environment, and Joseph Smith's own strong sex drive all made plural marriage an idea with considerable power for the Mormon prophet in Nauvoo, Illinois, during the early 1840s" (Foster, "The Psychology of Religious Genius: Joseph Smith and the Origins of New Religious Movements," in The Prophet Puzzle: Interpretive Essays on Joseph Smith, ed. Bryan Waterman [Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1999], 188).

As Foster elaborates elsewhere:

A final key precondition for the introduction of Mormon polygamy was related to the social disorder with which Joseph Smith had to try to deal. . . . Mormons, in attempting to create their 'new Israel,' increasingly turned in on themselves and depended on family and kinship ties to secure loyalty to the group. Polygamy could make possible a far greater extension of such ties than could monogamy. For example, by the time of his death at age eighty-eight, the Mormon patriarch Benjamin F. Johnson was related by blood or by marriage to more than eight hundred people and presumably had greater power and security than those with less extensive kinship networks. The Mormon concern for extending family ties and for controlling their own marriage practices was part of a larger effort to establish an autonomous, self-sufficient organization separate from an evil and corrupt world, an effort to create a 'political kingdom of God.'

— Lawrence Foster, Women, Family, and Utopia: Communal Experiments of the Shakers, the Oneida Community, and the Mormons (Syracuse, NY: Syracuse University Press, 1991), 128.

By the way, the title of Foster's book should remind us that other 19th-century utopian communities also experimented with unorthodox marriage practices—which suggests something more behind the Mormon practice of plural marriage than Joseph Smith's raging libido.