Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

[_Brackite]

Brackie, you are such a gem. Truly. Such a gem.

Brackite is, indeed, a gem.

He reminds us that from a doctrinal standpoint, the New Testament refers to the teachings of Christ, who came to fulfill the law.

Thanks, Harmony and Liz!!!

[_Morrissey]

And Jacob condemns David and Solomon's practice it total. He leaves no wiggle room like we find in D&C 132:

Grazing in the Cafeteria again Jason? And this time, you now bring the standard works into the fray. Very well then, we have one verse that seems to leave a caveat open; in all things we may be justified except those things in which we are not commanded and authorized.

In another verse, we see what appears to be a blanket condemnation of plural marriage.

And yet, we know Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, David and others practiced plural marriage free of any biblical condemnation. Indeed, taking David as an example, and regarding to the reference in the book of Jacob, what do you make of the prophet Nathan's comments to David in which David is roundly criticized for failing to follow the Lord's commandments strictly, in the which the Lord would have provided David with even more plural wives had he been faithful?

What about Abijah and Jehoiada?

Who cares?[/quote]

Indeed. Who cares what actors in a book of iron age historical fiction ruled over by a capricious, cruel, vindictive, and murderous fictional tribal God did? How the hell is this relevant for modern society?

Just how can one morally justify religiously-based polygamy, as practiced by the early LDS Church and as replicated by the contemporary FLDS Church? Any of you polygamy apologists want to take this on?

[_why me]

Sure, droopy, sure - Joseph was alone with Fanny, nothing happened. That's why the virulent anti-mormon Oliver Cowdery called it a nasty, dirty, affair....

I believe that Oliver wrote that in a letter to his relative. And at that time is was out of or leaving the church. And I don't think that Oliver caught them at it. He went by the rumor, I believe. I would need to reread the process of events.

And least we forget, he did come back to the fold and bore his testimony of the Book of Mormon. Quite a guy!!

[_Mary]

Droopy, am I interpreting your position correctly on Fanny Alger, in that because it is hearsay evidence (from Emma and then on to some prominent early members like Oliver) you dismiss it.

I think that is a fair position to take by the way.

I havn't studied the prophets attitudes towards polygamy, but the little studying I have done, from a Jewish point of view, suggests that monogomy was the ideal, thus we have Adam and Eve with no mention of polygamy.

David and Solomon were Kings and I believe that their concubines and marriages were tolerated rather than accepted as God given practice. I could be wrong on that, but from the Jewish sites I have looked at on the net, this seems to be the case.

And remember, with regard to David, he goes beyond toleration point by taking Uriah's wife. So this cannot justify even from an Old Testament prophetic standpoint the practice of polyandry. On polyandry Joseph was getting his justification from somewhere other than the Old Testament. Matthias perhaps inspired him on this level? I don't know.

Mary

[_beastie]

I believe that Oliver wrote that in a letter to his relative. And at that time is was out of or leaving the church. And I don't think that Oliver caught them at it. He went by the rumor, I believe. I would need to reread the process of events.

And least we forget, he did come back to the fold and bore his testimony of the Book of Mormon. Quite a guy!!

Since he never lost belief, apparently, that ought to provide even more compelling evidence that there was serious evidence something significant occurred between Fanny and Joseph - something more than being alone in a room.

But, of course, the most compelling evidence that "something" happened is the fact that Fanny is recognized as Joseph Smith's first plural wife by apologists. There would be no reason for apologists to accept that if there were not good evidence that there was an intimate relationship between the two.

The second most compelling evidence that Fanny and Joseph had an intimate relationship is that there can be no reasonable doubt that Joseph had intimate relations with his later spiritual wives. So why would he have not done so with his first spiritual wife?

This reminds me of the Martha Brotherton story. Apologists insist that Martha fabricated the event. Yet, Brigham Young had Martha sealed to him as his "wife" after his death. I find that the most compelling piece of evidence that she was telling the truth - combined with the fact that the details of her story matched details of other spiritual wives of the period.

There can also be no reasonable doubt that the church was plagued with serious rumors about intimate relationships, hence their repeated denials. The later open practice of polygamy proved that those earlier rumors were based in fact. Joseph was plagued by serious rumors about Fanny Alger. The later open recognition of her as his "wife" proves that those rumors were based in fact.

[_truth dancer]

Oh, but I forgot, any time an adult male is alone with a young girl, foul, malignant, and filthy intent must be imputed in sexual abuse saturated TD/Feminist/Oprahworld. Joseph is guilty only because he was alone with Fanny without a government certified social worker watching closely, cattle prod in hand, to make sure nothing inappropriate was occurring.

LOL!

No, Joseph Smith was guilty of manipulating and coercing his children's nanny, a girl, into a sexual relationship.

But, yeah, I do think "foul, malignant, and filthy intent" was on the mind of Joseph Smith when he secretly met Fanny in the barn.

And, I am pretty sure you would consider every other married man who coerces girls into a sexual relationship as having "foul, malignant, and filthy intent." You just give a free pass to Joseph Smith.

I look forward to the joyous day when all of this comes crashing down around the ears of tenants, managers, and maintenance staff of the Great and Spacious Building.

And great shall be the fall of it.

I'm so scared!

~td~

[_Mary]

I believe that Oliver wrote that in a letter to his relative. And at that time is was out of or leaving the church. And I don't think that Oliver caught them at it. He went by the rumor, I believe. I would need to reread the process of events.

And least we forget, he did come back to the fold and bore his testimony of the Book of Mormon. Quite a guy!!

Since he never lost belief, apparently, that ought to provide even more compelling evidence that there was serious evidence something significant occurred between Fanny and Joseph - something more than being alone in a room.

But, of course, the most compelling evidence that "something" happened is the fact that Fanny is recognized as Joseph Smith's first plural wife by apologists. There would be no reason for apologists to accept that if there were not good evidence that there was an intimate relationship between the two.

The second most compelling evidence that Fanny and Joseph had an intimate relationship is that there can be no reasonable doubt that Joseph had intimate relations with his later spiritual wives. So why would he have not done so with his first spiritual wife?

This reminds me of the Martha Brotherton story. Apologists insist that Martha fabricated the event. Yet, Brigham Young had Martha sealed to him as his "wife" after his death. I find that the most compelling piece of evidence that she was telling the truth - combined with the fact that the details of her story matched details of other spiritual wives of the period.

There can also be no reasonable doubt that the church was plagued with serious rumors about intimate relationships, hence their repeated denials. The later open practice of polygamy proved that those earlier rumors were based in fact. Joseph was plagued by serious rumors about Fanny Alger. The later open recognition of her as his "wife" proves that those rumors were based in fact.

I agree with this Beastie. I was talking to someone the other day though, who does dismiss the Fanny Alger event based on the fact that it is hearsay. The trouble is almost every founding event in the church is also based on hearsay, including the faith promoting stuff.

I think that there is enough wiggle room on all this for people to maintain a belief in Joseph as basically a decent man, otherwise surely everyone would do what I and a number of others have done, leave, believing him to be somewhat of a fraud, even if a pious one.

[_beastie]

I agree with this Beastie. I was talking to someone the other day though, who does dismiss the Fanny Alger event based on the fact that it is hearsay. The trouble is almost every founding event in the church is also based on hearsay, including the faith promoting stuff.

I think that there is enough wiggle room on all this for people to maintain a belief in Joseph as basically a decent man, otherwise surely everyone would do what I and a number of others have done, leave, believing him to be somewhat of a fraud, even if a pious one.

I agree that people can find ways to wiggle with the problematic information in a way that allows them to continue to believe Joseph Smith was basically a decent man. The wiggling is what I find interesting, of course, because it helps demonstrate how the human mind negotiates threatening information. All human minds do this – interpret information in a way that allows us to retain our previous convictions – but it’s almost impossible to see it happening in ourselves. That’s why it’s interesting when it’s pretty obvious in others. I want to emphasize that I don’t think LDS are unique in this trait, nor are exLDS immune to it. To my mind, the fact that so many rumors were going around that the church leaders had to repeatedly deny them, the fact that those closest to Joseph Smith believed there was an intimate relationship with Fanny, the fact that later apologists recognized Fanny as a plural wife, adds up to a high degree of confidence that Joseph Smith had an intimate relationship with Fanny. But droopy - and others – are able to discount or ignore bits of this puzzle, which allows them to take a different position.

Part of the reason I often enjoying discussing these type of issues is because, other than the impact LDS beliefs have on my family (which we’ve learned to negotiate), the fact that some people are able to believe Joseph Smith did not have an intimate relationship with Fanny has absolutely no impact on my life – hence, it can provide an interesting demonstration of the reasoning of the human mind that doesn’t feel “threatening” to me in any way. But, in the end, it doesn’t matter to me that droopy, or anyone else, denies what I think is obvious because it has zero impact on my life. However, I’m sure that discussing politics or other issues that I do see as impacting my life would result in stress – because those things matter more to me. And those are probably the areas in which my own “blind spots” would be more apparent to others, precisely due to my emotional connection with the topic.

[_truthseeker]

I love this discussion! It is true, the Book of Mormon leaves no room for anything and the brethren were not only guilty of altering Joseph's words, but also trying to put a spin on Jacob 2 and 3.

Joseph Smith claimed only one wife, fought against polygamy trying to eradicate it from the church until his death. The journals of William Clayton show what kind of a person he was, the only witness to the purported revelation D&C 132, which was put in after Joseph's death.

There was only a select "secret" group who were practicing polygamy, and Joseph and Hyrum were not part of this group, as evidence is pouring out in "these days", so that we don't practice "these things"

There are some very good points from individuals on this subject. I have hundreds upon hundreds of pages of documentation showing where this evil and the secrecy and the slander came from, and the difference between the Lord's words that "He will not suffer or allow his righteous branch, which we are suppose to be' to do like those of old.

It is a fascinating and an imperative subject to study, because the Lord has been righting the ship, but we are to help steer the helm, and clear the way. There is new information on this subject being brought to light: the hidden things of darkness, and secrecy.

[_truthseeker]

And Beastie is right, Oliver went on rumor, and the "affair" was not sexual, but the fact that others were rumoring and slandering while she was in the home. They had already put into "scripture" or writ and record D&C 101 which said that

"Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again"

This never changed to be the doctrine of the church, and the secrecy started after their deaths. Joseph Smith was very open about prosecuting and ridding the twelve and others of this "crime" and he started to do that as being shown by the original records.