Questions I'd like to see Peterson "actually answer (and not

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_beastie
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Re: Questions I'd like to see Peterson "actually answer (and not

Post by _beastie »

Thank you. Since I can't be trusted to give the real answer for myself, it's very helpful for you to step in and offer it on my behalf.

I actually don't completely agree with you, but I grant your superior right to speak for me, and will remain modestly silent on the point.


I see. So you do not believe that beliefs based on spiritual witnesses are more valid than beliefs based on other methods?

(edit on: I see from your clarification that you do not so believe. In my experience, that makes you a bit different from most members.)

And, as Thomas Kuhn has famously pointed out, nobody else thinks this way, and there are no paradigms….

As anybody versed in the history of science knows, anomalies are never put on the shelf, and theories are never adopted until they've been proven.


If scholars choose to ignore widely accepted theories regarding their areas of expertise in order to explore a new option, then same scholars, if responsible, will alert their audience that they are doing just that. But this is not how the examples I provided were worded. There was nothing in either example to alert the audience that the scholar was forming a generalization that required ignoring accepted data and theories about the item in question. Both Dr. Clark and Dr. Miller stated the information as if it reflected accepted knowledge about the point in question.

Although, like all believing Mormons, Dr. Miller and I are Siamese twins, we were separated at birth and, to the best of my knowledge, haven't actually met each other since that time. So I feel just a tad reluctant to speak for him on this or any other issue.


My question was rhetorical in nature, and meant to demonstrate the point I was making. Dr. Miller, like Dr. Clark, already “know” the Book of Mormon is an ancient Mesoamerican document, so they feel justified ignoring accepted knowledge about the region.

Although, of course, you would be very reluctant to wonder such a thing, and would only do so as a last resort.


I actually do try and reserve for a last resort. Sometimes the examples are so egregious that it does seem the only reasonable conclusion. I classify Dr. Miller’s statement as one such example. He had to know that his statement was going to mislead his audience into believing something that the vast majority of scholars in his field reject.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Re: Questions I'd like to see Peterson "actually answer (and not

Post by _Ray A »

Daniel Peterson wrote:and I see no reason to believe that beliefs derived from revelation are surer than the absolutely unambiguous deliverances of my senses or of logic.

That's what I meant.


I would call that subjective logic.

Subjective logic is a type of probabilistic logic that explicitly takes uncertainty and belief ownership into account. In general, subjective logic is suitable for modeling and analysing situations involving uncertainty and incomplete knowledge...Arguments in subjective logic are subjective opinions about propositions.


But consider Coe again:

One might wonder how my profession in general, the profession of archaeology, has used Book of Mormon archaeology -- or let's say archaeology done by Mormons; I always separate these two things out. I think that for the Book of Mormon, even though they don't know much about the Book of Mormon or Mormonism, they take the whole thing as a complete fantasy, that this is a big waste of time. Nothing can ever come out of it because it's just impossible that this could have happened, because we know what happened to these people. We can read their writings: They're not in reformed Egyptian; they're in Maya.


Coe's knowledge isn't based on subjective logic. It's based on field work, and empirical knowledge.

The best the believer can hope for is a "Kuhnian revolution", which is why "the objectivity question" is always held out. The prime motivation behind this hope is the "spiritual witness". I.e., if the spiritual witness it true, and for the believer it must be, then a paradigm change will also occur. That is the believer's "sure knowledge".
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Re: Questions I'd like to see Peterson "actually answer (and not

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

I don't know Dr. Miller, but I'm sure that you're right in labeling him a deliberate deceiver.

And I bow to your superior knowledge of the history of science, etc. (Why have I wasted so much time on this today?)

Morrissey wrote:Ok, I can accept that is how you function. This is not, however, what LDS doctrine emphasizes, nor how, I think, the common active member understands this issue.

But then one thing I think we've established pretty conclusively is that apologists approach the 'gospel' quite a bit differently than the common member.

Do you really, seriously, imagine that a Latter-day Saint has to believe that revelation is more certain than the multiplication tables or the transitive law in logic and mathematics? I'm not even sure what that would mean. Such things are about as close to undeniable truths as I'm capable of conceiving. I scarcely think I'm being heretical or innovative in saying that "2+2=4" is a fundamental, indubitable truth.

JohnStuartMill wrote:You're wrong, Morrissey. Clearly, the apologists are correct when they self-servingly equate a worldview won by hundreds of years of rigorous experiments and philosophical grappling with one that supports itself by appealing to emotions.

Well now that's a fair and just summary of my views.

Note to self: The real John Stuart Mill, for all his flaws, was a serious thinker. Don't confuse this one with him.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Questions I'd like to see Peterson "actually answer (and not

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Ray A wrote:I would call that subjective logic.

I wouldn't.

There's nothing "subjective" or dubious about

All A are B.
x is A.
Therefore, x is B

And, so far as human knowledge goes, there seems nothing more certain than that, say, causes precede but don't follow effects.

Ray A wrote:Coe's knowledge isn't based on subjective logic. It's based on field work, and empirical knowledge.

Within normal human limits, that's probably pretty much true.

So what?

Michael Coe's a big name. But he's not the end of things, and he's not even, any more, on the cutting edge. SImply citing him doesn't settle matters.

Ray A wrote:The best the believer can hope for is a "Kuhnian revolution", which is why "the objectivity question" is always held out. The prime motivation behind this hope is the "spiritual witness". I.e., if the spiritual witness it true, and for the believer it must be, then a paradigm change will also occur. That is the believer's "sure knowledge".

It was also, pretty much, the relativity theorist's sure knowledge before the empirical data appeared that would vindicate the theory.

Things aren't so irrational among the faithful as some simplistic skeptics seek to portray. And things aren't so purely rational among scientists and scholars, either.

Do I have a hope that you don't share? Absolutely. Is that news? Scarcely.
_JohnStuartMill
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Re: Questions I'd like to see Peterson "actually answer (and not

Post by _JohnStuartMill »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
JohnStuartMill wrote:You're wrong, Morrissey. Clearly, the apologists are correct when they self-servingly equate a worldview won by hundreds of years of rigorous experiments and philosophical grappling with one that supports itself by appealing to emotions.

Well now that's a fair and just summary of my views.

How are the promptings of the Holy Ghost distinguishable from emotions?
"You clearly haven't read [Dawkins'] book." -Kevin Graham, 11/04/09
_Morrissey
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Re: Questions I'd like to see Peterson "actually answer (and not

Post by _Morrissey »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Do you really, seriously, imagine that a Latter-day Saint has to believe that revelation is more certain than the multiplication tables or the transitive law in logic and mathematics? I'm not even sure what that would mean. Such things are about as close to undeniable truths as I'm capable of conceiving. I scarcely think I'm being heretical or innovative in saying that "2+2=4" is a fundamental, indubitable truth.


No I don't. That's not what I was referring to. But I think you know that.
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Re: Questions I'd like to see Peterson "actually answer (and not

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Morrissey wrote:No I don't. That's not what I was referring to. But I think you know that.

No, I don't know that. If I misunderstood you, explain. Don't pull the standard-issue beastie stunt of presuming that I'm a dishonest cretin operating in bad faith.


.
_beastie
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Re: Questions I'd like to see Peterson "actually answer (and not

Post by _beastie »

Do you really, seriously, imagine that a Latter-day Saint has to believe that revelation is more certain than the multiplication tables or the transitive law in logic and mathematics? I'm not even sure what that would mean. Such things are about as close to undeniable truths as I'm capable of conceiving. I scarcely think I'm being heretical or innovative in saying that "2+2=4" is a fundamental, indubitable truth.


Now this is reductio ad absurdum, particularly given the context of the discussion.

I don't know Dr. Miller, but I'm sure that you're right in labeling him a deliberate deceiver.

And I bow to your superior knowledge of the history of science, etc. (Why have I wasted so much time on this today?)


The only other alternative is that he is so ill-informed that he really doesn’t know that the vast majority of scholars in the field accept that the horse went extinct 11,000 years ago. I find that far more difficult to believe than that he simply decided that the fact that the Book of Mormon is “true” and that, one day, perhaps evidence of the horse will be found after all, justified this serious omission.

by the way, it never ceases to amuse me how eagerly apologists dumb down Americans. It hardly takes “superior knowledge” of the history of science to know:

1. the vast majority of scholars accept that the New World horse went extinct around 11,000 years ago
2. the vast majority of Mesoamericanists see no evidence of the bow or arrow prior to around 900 AD
3. if scholars are going to propose a theory that requires rejecting either of these widely accepted pieces of information, those same scholars, if being responsible, will warn their audience that they are so doing – else, the audience may erroneously assume the scholar is making a statement that correlates with the vast majority of scholars in his/her field


No, I don't know that. If I misunderstood you, explain. Don't pull the standard-issue beastie stunt of presuming that I'm a dishonest cretin operating in bad faith.


LOL. I accused you of jumping to an erroneous conclusion. That is hardly the equivalent of this silly summary.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Re: Questions I'd like to see Peterson "actually answer (and not

Post by _Ray A »

Daniel Peterson wrote:It was also, pretty much, the relativity theorist's sure knowledge before the empirical data appeared that would vindicate the theory.


But we must note that the Historicity Theory is still a long way off vindication in professional archaeology. The comparison isn't a particularly strong one, especially when you consider that even Mormon archaeologists aren't looking for "vindication", clearly see the differences, and live in compartments, the religious one and the professional one. With exceptions like Clark, of course, who doesn't see, apparently, anything convincing enough to sway his peers towards his ideas. Perhaps he's sort of like Newton speculating on theology but keeping it separately from his science.

Daniel Peterson wrote:Things aren't so irrational among the faithful as some simplistic skeptics seek to portray. And things aren't so purely rational among scientists and scholars, either.


Of course not. I think you do a good job of analysing Islam (and more recently on the MAD board, Iran),and the Qur'an. I don't see that sharpness when it comes to the Book of Mormon historicity question, so:

Daniel Peterson wrote:Do I have a hope that you don't share? Absolutely. Is that news? Scarcely.


I do realise it's primarily a hope, based on faith, and subjective revelation.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Questions I'd like to see Peterson "actually answer (and not

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:Now this is reductio ad absurdum, particularly given the context of the discussion.

It was directly addressing the point that I believed Morrissey to be making. If he had some other point in mind besides the one I addressed, I hope he'll take the time to explain it.

I don't know Dr. Miller, but I'm sure that you're right in labeling him a deliberate deceiver.

beastie wrote:by the way, it never ceases to amuse me how eagerly apologists dumb down Americans. It hardly takes “superior knowledge” of the history of science to know:

My comment about the history of science had absolutely nothing whatever to do you with the extinction of the horse or evidence for Mesoamerican bows and arrows. It was a more general theoretical point than that, and you missed it completely. I'm fine with that. However, I'm still operating on what I believe to be the reasonable hypothesis that Morrissey is a serious discussion partner.

beastie wrote:
No, I don't know that. If I misunderstood you, explain. Don't pull the standard-issue beastie stunt of presuming that I'm a dishonest cretin operating in bad faith.


LOL. I accused you of jumping to an erroneous conclusion. That is hardly the equivalent of this silly summary.

Dja fergit about Wade Miller, beastie? And the others you've treated in similar fashion?
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