Sparing Women the Demands of the Priesthood

[_beastie]

I don’t visit MAD much anymore, but read one thread tonight called “A Firm Testimony of the Church, Why I Believe it is Necessary”.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... 44122&st=0

A new poster named Nedra started the thread with this post:

I've learned a lot since I started posting this week. I have lurked for months, and decided to post because of a topic on sealings, temple work, etc.

As I've contemplated the responses and considered why I have not considered myself a member for more than ten years, I realize that it's primarily because I just don't believe the church. I don't believe in it, and I don't believe it. There are many things I like about it, but without complete belief in the remarkable claims of the church, and the extraordinary promises, there are other good organizations to join, good tenets to cling to, and good services to visit.

I also realized that I don't want to believe. I don't want to live in an afterlife where my gay nephew and his husband (yes, legally married) cannot live in the same afterlife with me if the afterlife is about married couples. I don't want to live in an afterlife where couples are given the choice to accept an ordinance on their behalf that ratifies their earthly union into the eternities. I don't want to live in or believe in an afterlife full of work instead of rest for my labors, or where women are hidden.

I completely admit this may be the wrong perception of the afterlife, but it's as I was taught and as I remember as an active member of the Church.

On this side of the veil, I have to believe that if I as an unmarried woman fool around with my date (all consensual) I am obligated/advised/required to tell my bishop about it, or I will not "feel" forgiven. I have to believe that women don't get to do some of the cool things men can do just because we don't have the priesthood.

And yet--there exists in the Church a strong sense of family, a love and work ethic that is unparalleled, and a rich history that is inspirational.

So my question is this: Does Heavenly Father want everyone to be LDS--either on this side of the veil or after this life? And what if people just don't want to be? Is it fair, then, that they wouldn't qualify for the highest blessings of heaven just because they can't, or won't believe, or because they don't like most things about the church?

I want to follow up on something that DCP also responded to, partly because it relates to some recent threads about male/females on this board.

DCP’s responded to this sentence in the OP

I have to believe that women don't get to do some of the cool things men can do just because we don't have the priesthood.

His response:

Speaking personally, I would happily allow women to do some of the cool things that I get to do because I hold the priesthood. Ten hours each week spent counseling with the guilt ridden and the emotionally troubled and the suicidal and the unemployed, for example. Early morning leadership meetings. Wednesday nights gone, from 6:30 until usually around midnight. Sundays simply gone. Several other evenings gone. Saturdays often gone (only three hours today, though!). Calls at work. Calls between 2 AM and 4 AM from people who've just overdosed on pain medications or cut themselves or are in jail.

It's an enviable lifestyle, no doubt, and the paycheck is handsome. But I'd be willing to let somebody else have a go at it who really, really craves it.

I think there is a myth in the church that having the priesthood means that men have much more of a burden in terms of church service then women do. DCP’s response certainly seems to convey that idea.

In reality, there are callings that women perform in the church that are emotionally taxing and demanding, as well. Relief Society president comes to mind. Doesn’t the Relief Society president spend many hours a week on meetings and helping, when needed? Isn’t the Relief Society called upon to provide services to the needy? Doesn't the Relief Society president provide aid and comfort at inconvenient hours?

I’ve never served as a bishop, so it may well be that the demands on the bishop exceed that of the relief society president, or the stake relief society president. But this is just one calling, and only one male in the church serves as bishop. All the other callings in the ward that males can perform are matched, in terms of time and effort, by callings females can perform.

It really seems a fallacy to insinuate that not having the priesthood spares women/mothers from being asked to perform extended and demanding duties at church. In fact, in some wards, it often seems as if the females keep the ward running.

So since both men and women can be asked to serve in callings that are arduous and emotionally draining, it seems that the one “cool thing” the priesthood can do that women cannot is to perform sacred ordinances in the name of Jesus Christ.

These are not time consuming functions. They are not arduous functions. 12 year old males perform many of them.

So why is it that performing sacred ordinances in the name of Jesus Christ must be reserved for men, in order to allow women to be MOTHERS? Why is it that performing sacred ordinances in the name of Jesus Christ doesn’t prevent men from being FATHERS?

[_harmony]

Some comments:

1. Daniel's reply reflects only his own situation. In his ward, there are likely around +/-100 other men who are not the bishop, and who do not have that sort of work load.

2. Not all bishops have the same workload as Daniel. For example, I doubt that my bishop has ever been called out at 2 am because a member is in jail or cut themselves. My husband is much more likely to be called out at 2 am than my bishop is, and my husband is just the SS president (my husband is an EMT and is in charge of our local volunteer ambulance crew, so 2 am alarms are not unusual).

3. a 12 year old boy has more clout than any woman in the church, including the General President of the Relief Society. And if you don't think those 12 year old boys know that, you don't know the males of the species. And if you don't think that grates on the women, you don't know indoctrination, depression, and repression when you see it.

4. bishops come and go, but an LDS man who treats his wife as the equal she is, is a gem to be treasured. It's not the priesthood that makes a man a man; it's his character. And unfortunately, LDS leaders aren't gems. If they were, we'd never hear another talk about the idiotic exalted status of mothers who stay at home and listen to the foolishness of their priesthood holding husbands; we'd hear talks extolling women who broke the mommy mold and found fulfillment in their personal, professional, and home lives. And we'd hear the "AMEN's" from the men who are lucky enough to be married to those women.

[_The Nehor]

I think there is a myth in the church that having the priesthood means that men have much more of a burden in terms of church service then women do. DCP’s response certainly seems to convey that idea.

Not a myth.

In reality, there are callings that women perform in the church that are emotionally taxing and demanding, as well. Relief Society president comes to mind. Doesn’t the Relief Society president spend many hours a week on meetings and helping, when needed? Isn’t the Relief Society called upon to provide services to the needy? Doesn't the Relief Society president provide aid and comfort at inconvenient hours?

Very few Relief Society Presidents are as busy as their Bishop.

I’ve never served as a bishop, so it may well be that the demands on the bishop exceed that of the relief society president, or the stake relief society president. But this is just one calling, and only one male in the church serves as bishop. All the other callings in the ward that males can perform are matched, in terms of time and effort, by callings females can perform.

Most of them yes.

It really seems a fallacy to insinuate that not having the priesthood spares women/mothers from being asked to perform extended and demanding duties at church. In fact, in some wards, it often seems as if the females keep the ward running.

In an ideal environment both genders keep the ward running. This is why I despised the month last year where we compared HT and VT numbers in a kind of competition.

So since both men and women can be asked to serve in callings that are arduous and emotionally draining, it seems that the one “cool thing” the priesthood can do that women cannot is to perform sacred ordinances in the name of Jesus Christ.

Where did you get the idea this is 'cool'? Do you think men like having to speak in the name of God while giving a blessing or deciding whether to discipline a member, or counsel someone with difficult and seemingly irreparable problems.

These are not time consuming functions. They are not arduous functions. 12 year old males perform many of them.

12 year old males go door to door to collect checks and pass around trays for five minutes. No, it's not arduous. It usually gets harder. I know mine has. The lower levels were nice training and I tried to perform them as best as a stupid teenage boy could.

So why is it that performing sacred ordinances in the name of Jesus Christ must be reserved for men, in order to allow women to be MOTHERS? Why is it that performing sacred ordinances in the name of Jesus Christ doesn’t prevent men from being FATHERS?

So now we're talking about sacred ordinances? You do realize the Priesthood is MUCH, MUCH more then that. There is nothing to my knowledge that precludes women one day holding the Priesthood. I do accept that God can do as he pleases with his power. If he wants to take it from a people he can and does. If he wants to restrict it by bloodline he can and has done that too.

The Priesthood is not some right. There are times I've wished God gave women the Priesthood and exempted me. He has not and has not solicited my counsel on the matter so I do what I promised I would do. I obey.

[_The Nehor]

1. Daniel's reply reflects only his own situation. In his ward, there are likely around +/-100 other men who are not the bishop, and who do not have that sort of work load.

Duh.

2. Not all bishops have the same workload as Daniel. For example, I doubt that my bishop has ever been called out at 2 am because a member is in jail or cut themselves. My husband is much more likely to be called out at 2 am than my bishop is, and my husband is just the SS president (my husband is an EMT and is in charge of our local volunteer ambulance crew, so 2 am alarms are not unusual).

You may doubt it but I doubt your word on the matter. I doubt your Bishop confides in you his workload. Growing up I lived in the same house as a Bishop and I had no idea what he was doing a lot of the time when he left at odd hours in the morning or unexpectedly had to cancel family plans due to something happening. Most wards are like that. Maybe yours is an exception where no one dies or has spiritual emergencies or ruins their own life and seeks help. I doubt it.

3. a 12 year old boy has more clout than any woman in the church, including the General President of the Relief Society. And if you don't think those 12 year old boys know that, you don't know the males of the species. And if you don't think that grates on the women, you don't know indoctrination, depression, and repression when you see it.

Yeah....sure....I'd love to see a Deacon in my ward and the General President of the Relief Society both ask to speak to President Monson and see which one happens. I know something of the males of the species (being one myself) and I don't consider myself superior to women. At the age of 12 I was too busy admiring them and desiring them to imagine myself their spiritual superior. As I got older and I became friends with many it was impossible to see myself as superior (or inferior).

I've known many women in the Church and most aren't indoctrinated, depressed, and repressed. Most of those sincerely seeking God are too busy trying to obey and use the atonement of Christ to bother wondering if 'the man' was holding them back. If you asked them they would probably laugh at you.

4. bishops come and go, but an LDS man who treats his wife as the equal she is, is a gem to be treasured. It's not the priesthood that makes a man a man; it's his character. And unfortunately, LDS leaders aren't gems. If they were, we'd never hear another talk about the idiotic exalted status of mothers who stay at home and listen to the foolishness of their priesthood holding husbands; we'd hear talks extolling women who broke the mommy mold and found fulfillment in their personal, professional, and home lives. And we'd hear the "AMEN's" from the men who are lucky enough to be married to those women.

Wow, you've just accused hundreds or thousands of men you've never met of being sexist gits. Harmony charity at it's finest.

What is this mommy mold of which you speak? The best mothers I know (including my own) have interesting and fulfilling lives because they are good mothers and good at other things as well. I grew up in the Church and knew a lot of mothers growing up and since then. I knew best the faithful ones that did their callings and lived the gospel. They are mostly happy, strong women who raised good families, achieved their dreams, and have lived lives worthy of emulation and even envy. Same thing with the men who lived the Gospel. Fatherhood and motherhood are both great. I've found that those that whine about repression are usually those who feel they've failed somehow? If this is you, forgive yourself.

[_harmony]

Until you veil your face, bow your head, and say "yes", you have no idea what it's like to be an LDS woman, Nehor. Come back when you know what you're talking about.

[_Mercury]

Until you veil your face, bow your head, and say "yes", you have no idea what it's like to be an LDS woman, Nehor. Come back when you know what you're talking about.

The urge to make a cross dressing joke right now is very strong but I will leave Nehor alone.

[_The Nehor]

Until you veil your face, bow your head, and say "yes", you have no idea what it's like to be an LDS woman, Nehor. Come back when you know what you're talking about.

Until you've held the Priesthood and experienced it's demands you have no idea what it's like to be an LDS man so shut up until you do.

See how lame that argument is. Until there's a man speaking in the Vagina Monologues I refuse to listen to them as they're sexist.

[Analytics]

3. a 12 year old boy has more clout than any woman in the church, including the General President of the Relief Society. And if you don't think those 12 year old boys know that, you don't know the males of the species.

and then

Until you veil your face, bow your head, and say "yes", you have no idea what it's like to be an LDS woman, Nehor. Come back when you know what you're talking about.

Harmony, having raised children you may know the males of the species in several intimate respects, but you have no clue what being a 12 year old boy was like for me and it is nothing like what you have described.

4. bishops come and go, but an LDS man who treats his wife as the equal she is, is a gem to be treasured. It's not the priesthood that makes a man a man; it's his character.

I concur, but you should have stopped there.

If they were, we'd never hear another talk about the idiotic exalted status of mothers who stay at home and listen to the foolishness of their priesthood holding husbands;

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I've been raised to counsel together with my wife, and the culture I've been raised in has made it clear that 10 out of 10 times when we don't see eye-to-eye, it's the woman who's right. The only counsel I give her is to choose what makes her happy. The person who is trying to get her to follow an agenda is another woman--one she referrs to as her mother (and I do not find that inherent in mothers).

we'd hear talks extolling women who broke the mommy mold and found fulfillment in their personal, professional, and home lives.

I do not find fulfillment in my professional life (although I like it well enough as far as jobs go). Neither does my wife find fulfillment in hers--in fact she hates her job. I didn't insist that she work or not work. I support her decision either way. I'm happy when she's happy.

[_EAllusion]

Speaking personally, I would happily allow women to do some of the cool things that I get to do because I hold the priesthood. Ten hours each week spent counseling with the guilt ridden and the emotionally troubled and the suicidal and the unemployed, for example. Early morning leadership meetings. Wednesday nights gone, from 6:30 until usually around midnight. Sundays simply gone. Several other evenings gone. Saturdays often gone (only three hours today, though!). Calls at work. Calls between 2 AM and 4 AM from people who've just overdosed on pain medications or cut themselves or are in jail.

Wow, given how rough that sounds, I bet no men want to be in higher authority positions in the Church.

Oh. Wait. Lots of men do. Apparently, some people are more than happy to have increased responsibilities when it comes with things like increased social status and authority.

Why wouldn't women have the same ambitions?

The funny thing is DCP could've written the same retort if women were generally shut out of his professional field. If some women complained that they'd like to have all the cool stuff that comes along with being an Islamic studies scholar, DCP could retort with all list of all the hard work that goes into his job. The problem with that reply, as in the above, is that it seeks to pretend the uniquely rewarding aspects of it do not exist. That's all she was referring to. The subtext ends up being that women shouldn't worry their pretty little heads about it, because this is sometimes hard stuff that isn't all fun and games. I don't think that's intentional, but it's certainly there.

And finally, on a personal note, it's humorous to me that DCP's description of the arduous nature of his religious position is really close to what I do professionally. I mean, there's nothing on that list I haven't done as part of my job on a fairly routine basis. I think he's telling me my job sucks. :P

[_asbestosman]

See how lame that argument is. Until there's a man speaking in the Vagina Monologues I refuse to listen to them as they're sexist.

If a man spoke in the woods and there was no woman around to hear it, would he still be wrong?