From a layman's point of view, these two statements seem to contradict each other. In other words... it seems to me only one of you can be right.... right?
Yes. I think so. Which is why I am asking for examples of what Dales refers to as "Spaldingish language".
Later you added:
So Ben's logic per Roper is that Miller got the "Isthmus of Darien" from a newspaper report on Pratt or possibly even from Pratt himself.
I didn't get my information from Matt Roper - although he does discuss it, but from Michael Marquardt's book, The Rise of Mormonism, where he discusses this and provides the text of the newspaper accounts on pages 310-311. This link might get you to the right page.
Of course it sounds like there is a case to be made there, but I am not so sure. In the first place, it is clear that Pratt is not discussing the landing but instead the final battle which he describes as:
The assumption which Pratt was making (and which hopefully will clear this up a bit for you) is that Lehi landes somewhere south of the isthimus of Darien. So, in 1842, the Times and Seasons publishes this:
Since our “Extract” was published from Mr. Stephens’ “Incidents of Travel,” we have found another important fact relating to the truth of the Book of Mormon. Central America, or Guatemala, is situated north of the Isthmus of Darien and once embraced several hundred miles of territory from north to south. The city of Zarahemla, burnt at the crucifixion of the Savior and rebuilt afterwards, stood upon this land as will be seen from the following words in the Book of Alma: — “And now it was only the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla was nearly surrounded by water: there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.”
As far as your concern, Pratt is discussing the final battles - but they start at Zarahemla (which would have been north of the Straits of Darien) and so on. At any rate, either way we take it, I think it is quite clear that Miller's account connecting Zarahemla to the Straits of Darien doesn't stand in a vacuum, and this connection was being discussed my Mormon missionaries 18 months before Miller makes his statement.
Second, Pratt does not use the term "Straits of Darien" but instead says" Isthmus of Darien."
Here is an excerpt from the original newspaper article per Marquardt:
After that the inhabitants divided and wars ensued, in which the pagans prevailed.-The first battle was fought nigh to the strats of Darien, and the last at a hill called Comoro.
The two phrases (at least in the early 19th century) seemed to have been used fairly interchangeably.
Finally, and most important.... how does Pratt know this? Where is Pratt getting his information from?
It's an interesting question - but, I think that it has a very simple answer. The Isthimus of Darien is the neck of land coming around the Bay of Panama connecting North and South Americas. It would fit the description of a narrow neck of land. You can find an early map of it Here. So, I think that this is (and has been historically) a very popular interpretation for the narrow neck of land discussed in the Book of Mormon itself.
I only brought up your religious views because you appear to want to support the Smith only theory, but you appear to do so, not because you are interested or want to argue that theory in opposition to the S/R theory but because it is in line with your religious views.
I don't support Vogel's argument either. But the issue is in part that we need to look at the Spalding argument and ask if it is a good argument - independant of other theories. This is why I want to focus on the evidentiary claims. The question of plagiarism cannot be established by an appeal to any other theory of production.
This just isn't the case. The witnesses' statements exist independently to noted parallels, and noted parallels exist independently to witnesses's statements.
Primarily because they are talking about two different things.
Even though they exist independently, finding parallels between texts supports a conclusion that plagiarism likely occurred ....
No this isn't necessarily the case. This is why there a term "parallelomania" an a body of literature devoted to dealing with this problem. Finding significant parallels would support that conclusion. But you can't simply claim that they are significant on the basis that you think so.
In a bit, I will get to the links you made to Dale's site. Should be fun.
Ben wrote:The problem is that Spalding is a product of his environment, and his literature isn't something which stands inisolation to the rest of the literature of that millieu. So for you to suggest that there is a "Spaldingish language" is to suggest that there is something absolutely unique about his language that distinguishes him from his contemporaries. And this simply isn't the case. And there are lots of distinct issues with such a notion.
Considering your opinion that Spalding is a product of his environment that his writing doesn't stand in isolation with the rest of the literature of that time period and given the fact that Dale has extracted a collection of comparative phrases from the Book of Mormon and the writing of Spalding, does it make sense to conclude that the Book of Mormon is also a product of the 19th century?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Jersey Girl wrote:Considering your opinion that Spalding is a product of his environment that his writing doesn't stand in isolation with the rest of the literature of that time period and given the fact that Dale has extracted a collection of comparative phrases from the Book of Mormon and the writing of Spalding, does it make sense to conclude that the Book of Mormon is also a product of the 19th century?
Or, perhaps Spalding had a seer stone of his own.
Tales of gold books aren't limited to Mormon lore.
AlmaBound wrote:... Or, perhaps Spalding had a seer stone of his own. ...
Drofalick ended his prophesy. Hamack then arose & in his hand he held a stone which he pronounced transparent. Thro' this he could view things present & things to come, could behold the dark intrigues & cabals of foreign courts, & behold discover hidden treasures, secluded from the eyes of other mortals.... Such was the clearness of his sight, when this transparent stone was placed before his eyes. He looked fiercely & steadfastly on the stone & raised his prophetic voice....
AlmaBound wrote:... Or, perhaps Spalding had a seer stone of his own. ...
Drofalick ended his prophesy. Hamack then arose & in his hand he held a stone which he pronounced transparent. Thro' this he could view things present & things to come, could behold the dark intrigues & cabals of foreign courts, & behold discover hidden treasures, secluded from the eyes of other mortals.... Such was the clearness of his sight, when this transparent stone was placed before his eyes. He looked fiercely & steadfastly on the stone & raised his prophetic voice....
Alma 37:23 And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.
The question (and theory) I have is: did Joseph read this and insert himself into the pages as the fulfilment of what he read, as in other situations (Mormon 1:1, Limhi and Ammon, and etc), replacing Rigdon in the role of Gazelem?
AlmaBound wrote:... did Joseph read this and insert himself into the pages as the fulfilment of what he read ...
dunno....
But, I do suppose that Joseph read the Mormon book and then inserted himself into the saddle of the lead warhorse of the 1834 "Zion's Camp" paramilitary adventure.
Henceforth he was Teancum -- he was Helaman leading the striplings -- he was the great General Moroni, marching at the head of his righteous armies.
Before we can pin down what things Smith may have internalized from Spalding's fiction, we should first of all pin down what things we all agree that he copied into his own life from the Book of Mormon, (even before its text was first published in 1830).
As I recall, that book speaks of converts baptizing each other; seers, translators, hidden records; sacred hills; slippery treasures, old men's prophetic dreams and dozens of other interesting things that cropped up in Joe's daily life.
Considering your opinion that Spalding is a product of his environment that his writing doesn't stand in isolation with the rest of the literature of that time period and given the fact that Dale has extracted a collection of comparative phrases from the Book of Mormon and the writing of Spalding, does it make sense to conclude that the Book of Mormon is also a product of the 19th century?
No one disputes the fact that the Book of Mormon is a product fo the 19th century. The question is whether or not it is a translation of an ancient text.
In looking at Dale's list of parallels, I chose a set of works comparable in length to the Book of Mormon. The specific text I will be using is Mercy Warren's The Rise, Progress and Termination of the American Revolution. In this work, which she completed in 1801, and published in 1805, she details a great deal of what happened during the revolutionary war. I will be making some notable adjustments when I deal with parallels. Mercy's work is entirely in the third person - even when dealing with her own personal family. I will be compensating for this feature in the text. Warren's work (all three volumes) is of comparable size to the Book of Mormon (about 5% longer). However, it has a much larger vocabulary (about 2 and half times as large). This may also come to play a part. The other detail is that while the Book of Mormon only duplicates about 40% of the vocabulary of Spalding's Manuscript, Warren's text duplicates closer to 70%. Here are the first 10.
I want to make a couple of points before we start. This is from Dale's list. It's not a list which I might make between the two texts showing parallels. One of my utilities I have been working with breaks texts into locutions. A locution is a set of words of a specificied length. So, the line above "I want to make a couple of points before we start" can be identified to contain 7 unique 5 word locutions:
I want to make a want to make a couple to make a couple of make a couple of points
and so on. Between the Book of Mormon and Spalding's manuscript, there are roughly 450 identical unique 4 word locutions. Now this isn't actually a very large number. Between Spalding's manuscript and Warren's volumes that I used below, there are almost 800 between Warren and Spalding. Even this number isn't that spectacular - given that Ramsey's The Life of George Washington shares 3,700 such 4 word locutions with Warren's work. But, my point I am making with these statistics is that similar phrasing is going to occur in books - particularly those with similar content. The moment we start talking about wars, about armies, about battles, we get these kinds of common phrases.
So, here are the first 10 of Dale's examples. Should I provide more?
"At the head of his army"
This exact phrase does not occur in Warren's 3 volume set. But then, it doesn't appear in Spalding either in this exact form (just the Book of Mormon). Dale provide's this list from Spalding and the Book of Mormon:
(1.01) At the head of this army, Bombal began his march [ObMs 075:11] (1.02) Sambal, at the head of a great multitude [ObMs 130:28] (1.03) At the head of a select band of sixteen thousand [ObMs 136:09] (1.04) At the head of ten thousand bold and robust warriors [ObMs 136:15] (1.05) At the head of this army... he marched [ObMs 140:25] (1.06) are now at the head of one hostile army [ObMs 141:32] (1.07) are at the head of the other (army) [ObMs 141:34] (1.08) Hamkol at the head of many thousand Sciotans [ObMs 147:22] (1.09) being at the head of my brave warriors [ObMs 160:02] (1.10) himself at the head of about one thousand warriors [ObMs 164:09] (1.11) Now Alma...went up...at the head of his armies [Alma 2:16 LDS] (1.12) Amalickiah had come... at the head of his army [Alma 49:10 LDS] (1.13) Amalickiah did himself come down, at the head of the Lamanites [Alma 51:12 LDS] (1.14) Helaman did march at the head of these two thousand [Alma 56:09 LDS] (1.15) Coriantumr did march forth at the head of his numerous host [Helaman 01:19 LDS] (1.16) I did go forth at the head of an army of the Nephites [Mormon 2:2 LDS]
What we get in Warren are:
"... he put himself at the head of a body of loyalists and ..." "I am at the head of troops accustomed to success ..." "On his arrival in Canada, ... proceeded immediately across the lakes, at the head of 8000 or 10,000 men, ..." "At the head of 800 or 900 militia, he fell into an ambush ..." "... he voluntarily marched to the state of Vermont, at the head of the militia, ..." "... supported by General Phillips at the head of a formidable artillery" "The Marquis de la Fayette also marched at the head of a detachment to meet them ..." "... after he had dispatched Major General Grey at the head of a large detachment ..." "The Generals Maxwell and Dickenson, the Colonels Shrieve, Ogden, and others, at the head of their regiments ..." "He had marched from Virginia to Cambridge at the head of a body of riflemen ..." "... even Lieutenant Governor Bull, at the head of the royalists ..." "... and the renowned General Vaughan, at the head of 3000 or 4000 troops, ..." "The intrepid Captain Curtis at the head of a brigade of marines ..." "The Marquis of Carmarthen stood at the head of opposition against ..."
I expect you can see the obvious here. I want to point out that there are some notable issues. First, the Book of Mormon only has an army - not warriors (a favorite term of Spaldings), and of course Warren uses a number of additional descriptors. In nature, these are, I think, quite similar. Moving on to the next list:
(2.1) Rambock marched his whole army towards the city of Gamba... [ObMs156:13] (2.2) Coriantumr... did march forth with his whole army into the city ... [Hel. 1:21 RLDS, 2:20 LDS]
Compare with these from Warren:
“General Howe, ... ordered his tents to be struck, and a movement of his whole army to be made towards New York. ” “Sir Henry Clinton immediately set his whole army in motion for the relief of Verplanks …” “These circumstances induced General Howe, about the middle of December, to draw the main body of his army into the city of Philadelphia.” “General Arnold had marched with a thousand men for the relief of the besieged;” “... a number of Americans embodied themselves and marched to the Moravian town, ...”
Next:
(3.1) they retreated and marched to the fort [ObMs 157:26] (3.2) they retreated...and marched towards the Land of Noah... [Alma 21:163 RLDS, 49:12 LDS]
“The remainder retreated ... the remnant who escaped entered Philadelphia. ” “The party under Moultrie consisting chiefly of militia, on seeing themselves surrounded on all sides by British troops, retreated hastily and secured themselves within the city of Charleston.”
(4.1) They began their march towards the Land of Kentuck... [ObMs138:15] (4.2) took their camp and marched towards the land of Noah [Alma 49:12 LDS] (4.3) and had begun his march towards the land Bountiful [Alma 52:15 LDS] (4.4) they should march forward by another way towards the land of Manti[Alma 58:26 LDS] (4.5) Moroni... took his march towards the land of Gideon [Alma 62:03 LDS] (4.6) whatsoever force he could in all his march towards the land of Gideon [Alma 62:04 LDS] (4.7) took their march with a large body of men towards the land of Nephihah [Alma 62:14 LDS] (4.8) they pursued their march towards the land of Nephihah [Alma 62:18 LDS]
“General Greene detached a part of his own army to march towards the capital ...”
(5.1) Call immediately into the field an army of three thousand men [ObMs 074:05] (5.2) Kentucks ... assembled an army of thirty thousand men who [ObMs 075:07] (5.3) plan of Lobaska, an army of thirty thousand men were captured [ObMs 117:19] (5.4) food, which was guarded to us by an army of two thousand men [Alma 58:08 LDS] (5.5) an army of six thousand men should be sent unto Helaman [Alma 62:12 LDS] (5.6) that an army of six thousand men... be sent to the armies of Lehi [Alma 62:13 LDS]
“an army of near 2000 men made its appearance” “marched an army of several thousand men” “two regiments of New York militia and a body of New Englanders, consisting in the whole of about three thousand men,” “A detachment of upwards of one thousand men had been marched” “and between three and four thousand men were left there”
(6.1) by this small band of valiant citizens [ObMs 157:08] (6.2) fighting Lamoch and the little band of desperate heroes [ObMs 166:01] (6.3) He instantly selected a small band and marched [ObMs 167] (6.4) with the survivors of his little band of warriors [ObMs 170:21] (6.5) join their brethren, my little band of two thousand [Alma 57:06 LDS] (6.6) my little band of two thousand and sixty [Alma 57:19 LDS] (6.7) lead them out of the city by our small bands [Alma 58:02 LDS]
“The command of this little band had been given to a Colonel Arnold” “A regiment of valiant young men from Maryland,” “a small company of dissenters” “Not dismayed or daunted this small body of yeomanry, armed in the cause of justice” “stationing some small detachments in the outposts” “this small resolute party kept their ground” “the most timid were aroused to deeds of desperate heroism”
(7.1) rid our country from the most ferocious band of murderers [ObMs 116:16] (7.2) send forth to take this band of robbers and secret murderers [Helaman 02:10 LDS]
“ by a band of ruffians armed with swords and bludgeons” “he forgave the murderous band, after the principal ruffian had asked pardon in a court of justice”
(8.1) gentlemen immediately rode back with the greatest speed [ObMs 115:24] (8.2) They had marched with the greatest speed [ObMs 165:26] (8.3) and marched, with the utmost speed, to the left wing [ObMs 167:26] (8.4) Antipus, beholding our danger, did speed the march of his army [Alma 56:38 LDS] (8.5) weariness, which was occasioned by the speed of their march [Alma 56:51 LDS] (8.6) we took our march with speed towards the city Cumeni [Alma 57:34 LDS] (8.7) the Lamanites did follow after us with great speed [Alma 58:19 LDS] (8.8) and their march was with such exceedingly great speed that [Helaman 01:19 LDS]
“and fled with the utmost speed toward Ford Edward,” “but were ordered to decamp with speed” “to convey their prisoner as speedily as possible to the headquarters” “with all convenient speed, ... withdraw all his armies”
(9.01) He had a reserved core, who were placed in the rear of the main body [ObMs 75] (9.02) The musicians fell back in the rear [ObMs 145] (9.03) others were sorely wounded & retired back in the rear [ObMs 146] (9.04) had the divisions or bands in the rear of each army remained inactive [ObMs 147] (9.05) But the bands in the rear of their army instantly rushed forward [ObMs 147] (9.06) being reinforced by a body of troops in their rear [ObMs 149:18] (9.07) found the war to rage both in front and rear [ObMs 157] (9.08) the Sciotan army and lie in ambush in their rear [ObMs 159:24] (9.09) and to fall upon the rear of the Kentucks. [ObMs 157] (9.10) their places were supplied from the rear [ObMs 167] (9.11) encircled the Lamanites about on the east in their rear [Alma 43:35 LDS] (9.12) the Nephites coming upon them in their rear [Alma 43:36 LDS] (9.13) Moroni had been in their rear with his army [Alma 52:29 LDS] (9.14) the Lamanites in the rear delivered up their weapons [Alma 52:36 LDS] (9.15) to fall upon them in their rear, and thus bring them [Alma 55:23 LDS] (9.16) bring them up in the rear at the same time [Alma 56:23 LDS] (9.17) the armies of the Nephites both in their front and in their rear [3 Nephi 04:25 LDS]
“attacked in the rear, and their retreat cut off by a British party” “harassed the whole time by an enemy arranged on each hand, and pressed in the rear by recruits hourly coming in to the assistance of his opponents.” “harassed in the rear, and almost without provisions of any kind” “in front of the column, and the same in the rear, in order to prevent your falling into an ambuscade” “beheld the rear of the panic-struck army of Britain” “design to fall on the rear of the British army” “with the design to attack the rear of the march” “in order to harass the rear of the British,” “in front of the American lines”
(10.1) those who shall die, gloriously fighting in the cause of their country and their God ...shall arise quickly to the abodes of increasing delight and glory. [ObMs 130:22] (10.2) died in the cause of their country and of their God... are happy. [Alma 56:11 LDS] (10.3) those who had rebelled against their country and also their God [Alma 62:02 LDS]
“gentlemen of known attachment to the cause of their country” “from a conscious sense of duty to their God, to their King, to their country” “are too often led to forget themselves, their country, and their God.”