Eric.

[_Jersey Girl]

You can make that $100, because I think that sums it up in a nutshell. Even a non-Mormon observer of Mormonism can see this clearly.

I want to comment on the fish bowl that I mentioned, because I think that's where alot of the external pressure comes from. The thing is that within the immediate family, you have Mom and Dad doing their best to raise their kids according to their religious traditions because the hope is that one day, the whole family will be united for eternity (families are forever--but we don't know who will live with which family--the family they grew up in or the family they created) and exalted and all of that. The extended family (G'mas, G'pas, Aunts, Uncles, etc) are also doing the same as they marry, have children,etc. so it's a perpetual plan of salvation in progress (no pun intended).

Not only that, but you have ward members in and out of each other's home on a fairly regular basis visit/home teaching and I doubt that Mom and Dad want the kids revealing possible family disturbances during those visits and so they strive to maintain the image of the faithful family, even though we all know that all families have crap going on.

So, you've got visit/home teacher dropping in and should there be evidence of crap going on, I have no doubt but that this is discussed with spouses, etc. It takes like 5 seconds for stuff to spread around the Ward. Family goes to church on Sunday/Wednesday feeling a bit paranoid and perhaps the not-so-discreet sisters are looking at them sideways.

That's PRESSURE! That's a ton of pressure especially if you're mom and if mom is also involved in a calling such as Primary and doesn't show up to teach her class on Sunday, you have got to know that folks will be talking--"It must be getting really bad in that house!" "Yes, her husband isn't a Mormon" "Well, there you go, what did she expect?" "If he'd only gotten baptised" "I know, I know".

Blah, blah, blah. Buzz, buzz, buzz. I've seen it repeatedly.

LDS mom talking to me--near tears about her family hardships, another LDS mom shows up and her demeanor changes completely and she plasters a smile on her face.

Again, seen it repeatedly.

Everyone wants to feel welcome and appreciated in their church. They want it known that they're doing their level best to live in right ways and according to the dictates of their religion. What happens when the teenager veers off the road?

Holy hell, you've got internal/spiritual stuff going on, the external social stuff, and everyone knows that you FAILED.

What are your choices here? Stand up to the others (including relatives--grandma thinks your failure is her failure) and tell them you love your kid no matter what and it's none of their bloody business or do you publicly reject your own kid?

I'll continue later if I feel like it.

[_Daniel Peterson]

It may be worthwhile to point out that GoodK said that his relationship with his folks was noticeably harmed by what Professor Peterson did. Then again, I expect that DCP will just tell us that there's "another side" to GoodK's own impressions of his own relationship with his own father.

I insist that you take Eric's word on this as the absolute truth, from which no deviation should be tolerated, dissent from which can only be wicked.

[_Daniel Peterson]

the general Mormon incapacity/inability to look at themselves.

I always admire broad generalizations about large groups.

Upper class Mormons, female Mormons, Nigerian Mormons, lower class Mormons, Hispanic Mormons, educated Mormons, Japanese Mormons, British Mormons, uneducated Mormons, black Mormons, Utah Mormons, third-generation Mormons, male Mormons, convert Mormons, California Mormons, Canadian Mormons, Swiss Mormons, Polynesian Mormons, Mormon businessmen, Mormon lawyers, Mormon farmers, Mormon dentists, Mormon housewives, Mormon academics -- all pretty much identical.

[_Eric]

Hi all,

I don't plan to start participating again on this board because, frankly, I don't want to nor do I have the time. However, I did have a rather pleasant conversation with Ray last week as I tried out Skype for the first time. After our talk I considered coming back to explain a bit as I left rather abruptly. Then I read this thread and come to see, again, that my biggest critic is back at his crusade to destroy me. I don't understand it, nor do I understand why some people don't see what the next logical step of dealing with him is. Regardless, I'll hold off on reporting about all the behind the scenes happenings with Peterson, his lawyer, West Ridge, lawsuits and my departure from this board for now. I will however, reiterate and state as plainly and adamantly as possible that Daniel C. Peterson is a liar.

While I'm not entirely sure what story is being discussed here (I don't ever recall really telling a "story"), I can guarantee that the BYU employee knows of nothing that hasn't already been revealed here. Whatever he choses to say next will either be a blatant lie like the last defamatory post he made (which will prove to be rather costly, I hope), or something tremendously under-whelming. Either way it is a disgusting deception on Daniel's part, and I don't understand it nor would I be the slightest bit surprised to learn that he was commissioned or otherwise compelled by LDS Inc. to launch his campaign against me.

Mr. Peterson doesn't know my family, doesn't have a personal relationship with my step-dad, and isn't privy to any "insider" information. I know him as well as he knows me, and that isn't very well at all. Dan's slimy, plainly deceptive assertions are disgraceful and goes back to the sole reason I chose not to participate on this discussion board anymore. The behavior by the Mormons who contribute here is, for the most part, disgusting and shameful. The two LDS bishops that contribute the most have demonstrated that they have no qualms about lying, being otherwise dishonest, and deliberately trying to create chaos in the lives of others. If I were to judge the Mormon culture by its largest Internet ambassador, Daniel C. Peterson, I would loathe them all. What he does - and seems to stand for - is a disgusting form of amateurish damage control for Internet Mormons and considers only the reputation of his faith, not the real people he is involved in hurting. I would view Mormons as I view him, not as simple people who believe what they believe and are willing to live and let live.

I'll answer his insinuation for the last time even though it is nothing but a shameless, ad hominem character attack that has nothing to do with anything discussable. Did my step-dad believe that he needed to send me to the Utah Boys Ranch? Of course. I don't know why some people are assuming that I don't acknowledge that, or that it is a component of some other enlightening "side" of this "story." The Mormon Gulag cost him an enormous amount of money, of course he viewed it as a necessity. But on the other hand, my step-dad is, in every sense, a fundamentalist, fanatical Mormon. He views a vile of vegetable oil as a necessity, and he can't see past a plainly-stupid set of beliefs in order to maintain his personal relationships. If my step-dad was not so infected with the Mormon cult mentality I would have no Gulag experiences to report. Period.

Daniel C. Peterson's only contribution to this discussion has been, predictably, red herring after red herring aimed at distracting us all from the real issue at hand: the Mormon re-education camp for children in West Jordan, UT. A facility that has shown a propensity for abuse and human rights violations. A facility that will prove to be - especially in the coming months - a serious blemish for the Mormon community.

That's it. I'm not going to address anymore of Mr. Peterson's swill and will try my hardest not to comment further on his defective character or shameful behavior. I stand by my opening statement.

Anyway, I enjoyed my conversation with Ray and I admire him tremendously. There are many posters here who I have an enormous amount of respect for and enjoying reading. I hope, too, that someday I feel comfortable participating on this board again. Unfortunately, I have too many friends that are still active members to expose myself to the behavior of Internet Mormons right now.

A quote from my favorite author comes to mind. The worst advertisement for Mormonism is Internet Mormons.

I sincerely hope that all of you are doing well in your lives. Looking forward to talking soon.

All the best,

Eric

[_Daniel Peterson]

my biggest critic is back at his crusade to destroy me.

By suggesting that people here don't need to form judgments about you and your family, and aren't in a position to do so?

I will however, reiterate and state as plainly and adamantly as possible that Daniel C. Peterson is a liar.

Well, that settles it.

Dang.

I can guarantee that the BYU employee knows of nothing that hasn't already been revealed here.

How can you be sure? How could you know what I know?

Either way it is a disgusting deception on Daniel's part

Complicated family disagreements, it turns out, really should be decided by strangers on the basis of having heard only one side. To suggest otherwise, as I have done, is to deceive.

nor would I be the slightest bit surprised to learn that he was commissioned or otherwise compelled by LDS Inc. to launch his campaign against me.

Direct orders from the First Presidency, probably.

Mr. Peterson doesn't know my family, doesn't have a personal relationship with my step-dad, and isn't privy to any "insider" information. I know him as well as he knows me, and that isn't very well at all. Dan's slimy, plainly deceptive assertions are disgraceful and goes back to the sole reason I chose not to participate on this discussion board anymore. The behavior by the Mormons who contribute here is, for the most part, disgusting and shameful. The two LDS bishops that contribute the most have demonstrated that they have no qualms about lying, being otherwise dishonest, and deliberately trying to create chaos in the lives of others. If I were to judge the Mormon culture by its largest Internet ambassador, Daniel C. Peterson, I would loathe them all. What he does - and seems to stand for - is a disgusting form of amateurish damage control for Internet Mormons and considers only the reputation of his faith, not the real people he is involved in hurting. I would view Mormons as I view him, not as simple people who believe what they believe and are willing to live and let live.

There you have it.

I'll answer his insinuation for the last time even though it is nothing but a shameless, ad hominem character attack that has nothing to do with anything discussable. Did my step-dad believe that he needed to send me to the Utah Boys Ranch? Of course. I don't know why some people are assuming that I don't acknowledge that, or that it is a component of some other enlightening "side" of this "story." The Mormon Gulag cost him an enormous amount of money, of course he viewed it as a necessity. But on the other hand, my step-dad is, in every sense, a fundamentalist, fanatical Mormon. He views a vile of vegetable oil as a necessity, and he can't see past a plainly-stupid set of beliefs in order to maintain his personal relationships. If my step-dad was not so infected with the Mormon cult mentality I would have no Gulag experiences to report. Period.

There. Eric's stepdad's position has now been adequately set forth.

Let the denunciations and judgments begin!

Daniel C. Peterson's only contribution to this discussion has been, predictably, red herring after red herring aimed at distracting us all from the real issue at hand: the Mormon re-education camp for children in West Jordan, UT. A facility that has shown a propensity for abuse and human rights violations. A facility that will prove to be - especially in the coming months - a serious blemish for the Mormon community.

A subject on which I've said essentially nothing, and in which I have no investment whatsoever.

If the charges against the Utah Boys Ranch are true, the appropriate legal steps should be taken. That's my shameful position, and I'm sticking by it.

That's it. I'm not going to address anymore of Mr. Peterson's swill and will try my hardest not to comment further on his defective character or shameful behavior. I stand by my opening statement.

It pretty well settles all of the relevant questions, I should think.

[_harmony]

Nobody around here likes you, ya know.

;-P

It's because we're all jealous of his donuts.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Nobody around here likes you, ya know.

Yeah, I know.

It's been that way pretty much all my life. With my parents and my brother, on playgrounds, in high school, at work, in my neighborhood, with my wife and kids.

After a while, though, when I didn't move, the mobs with torches and painted faces stopped gathering on my lawn, my wife and children came to terms with the fact that I wasn't going away, and the area pretty much settled down.

I expect it'll be the same way here, after a decade or two.

[_Ray A]

I'll answer his insinuation for the last time even though it is nothing but a shameless, ad hominem character attack that has nothing to do with anything discussable. Did my step-dad believe that he needed to send me to the Utah Boys Ranch? Of course. I don't know why some people are assuming that I don't acknowledge that, or that it is a component of some other enlightening "side" of this "story." The Mormon Gulag cost him an enormous amount of money, of course he viewed it as a necessity. But on the other hand, my step-dad is, in every sense, a fundamentalist, fanatical Mormon. He views a vile of vegetable oil as a necessity, and he can't see past a plainly-stupid set of beliefs in order to maintain his personal relationships. If my step-dad was not so infected with the Mormon cult mentality I would have no Gulag experiences to report. Period.

There. Eric's stepdad's position has now been adequately set forth.

Well who should we believe? You know Eric's step-dad better than he does? You know his experiences and feelings better than he does? The truth is you don't know why Eric feels the way he does, because you've never properly listened to what he had to say. You've never for a minute felt enough empathy to really listen, and as I said above, the only thing at stake here for you is not really Eric, nor his family - but your beloved Church. That comes through loud and clear. He that loves mother or father, or brother or sister, or son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me. And who is "me"? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

In an earlier thread you made this comment:

My simple point was this: Those who accuse me of causing a rupture between GoodK and his stepfather over something with which I have no legitimate concern and of which I have no knowledge whatsoever should understand, before they leap to condemn me, that GoodK's stepfather and I have known each other for more than two decades and that the troubled relationship between GoodK and his stepdad had been a topic of conversation between us at several points over that period.

Disagree with my providing the link as much as you wish, but it's simply false to claim that I destroyed a relationship of which I knew nothing. I knew about it, and I didn't destroy it.

And that is the true extent of your knowledge about this. The Church's image, and the image of its defenders (including your friend), is the most important thing here for you.

I don't blame Eric one bit for the way he feels.

[_Doctor Scratch]

Eric---

I, for one, hope you stick around. I've always enjoyed reading your posts. But, if you need to stay away, for whatever reason, I understand. Best wishes to you in any case.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Ray, you're completely wrong. You don't know what you're talking about.