Eric.

[_Gadianton Plumber]

I had the most wonderful afternoon and evening. The weather was totally gorgeous! I took time to weed and water the garden. The lillies are taking over as usual! Ran errands and stopped in to the local scrapbooking store to gather up supplies and copy photos for the project I'm working on. Spent time sequestered away in what passes for my scrapstudio these days, working with just beautiful pattern paper, only wishing I had the artistic talent to create such a thing. Zen Garden- Lotus. It's just amazing. Recalled fond memories of loved ones as I poured over their photos. Cooked and served a really good meal for my family. Talked to one of the kids and later reflected on how thankful I am to have developed good relationships.

And then I came back here to check on this thread only to see it had turned to total and complete crap because three, presumably, grown men cannot resist the urge to maul eachother in public.

Holy hell.

Pok, keep me out of this. I have nothing to do with these exchanges, no question of mine has gone unanswered and I don't appreciate being dragged into it. I completely and utterly despise being USED for crap like this.

All right. Point taken.

I apologize for my baseless polemics, bishop. I will strive to keep the conversation intellectual in the future.

Friends?

[_Jersey Girl]

three, presumably, grown men cannot resist the urge to maul eachother in public.

"Cet animal est très méchant, Quand on l'attaque il se défend."

no question of mine has gone unanswered

Thank you. Have a good night.

Translate, Daniel...then find your center.

<---Zen Garden-Lotus Small image doesn't do it justice.

And you're welcome.


.

[_asbestosman]

There are times I try to understand both sides of a view, and times I try to understand 0 points of view. The latter case is what I choose for things such as divorce or other messy family situations such as Eric is experiencing. Sorry, but I don't want to know because I don't want to take sides. I'm happy to be friends or hang out with divorced people or others, but I refuse to get involved and take sides. When I say I intend to give both sides the benefit of the doubt, I mean it.

Is it wrong for me to give both sides the benefit of the doubt, or should I only give it to Eric? Is it wrong for me to refuse to involve myself in another family's affairs?

[_Jersey Girl]

There are times I try to understand both sides of a view, and times I try to understand 0 points of view. The latter case is what I choose for things such as divorce or other messy family situations such as Eric is experiencing. Sorry, but I don't want to know because I don't want to take sides. I'm happy to be friends or hang out with divorced people or others, but I refuse to get involved and take sides. When I say I intend to give both sides the benefit of the doubt, I mean it.

Is it wrong for me to give both sides the benefit of the doubt, or should I only give it to Eric? Is it wrong for me to refuse to involve myself in another family's affairs?

ab man,

I like your post because it's completely sincere. I think the one and only thing to do in this case is to realize that no problems can be solved on a message board, accept that no one here knows the full story from either side and take folks as they come to you.

This is a topical discussion board, not a flippin' family counseling service.

[Analytics]

Translate, Daniel...then find your center.

"This animal is very mean. When one attacks it, he defends himself."

I can read a little French, and Babelfish.yahoo.com can help me make sure I've got a decent understanding.

[_Pokatator]

I had the most wonderful afternoon and evening. The weather was totally gorgeous! I took time to weed and water the garden. The lillies are taking over as usual! Ran errands and stopped in to the local scrapbooking store to gather up supplies and copy photos for the project I'm working on. Spent time sequestered away in what passes for my scrapstudio these days, working with just beautiful pattern paper, only wishing I had the artistic talent to create such a thing. Zen Garden- Lotus. It's just amazing. Recalled fond memories of loved ones as I poured over their photos. Cooked and served a really good meal for my family. Talked to one of the kids and later reflected on how thankful I am to have developed good relationships.

And then I came back here to check on this thread only to see it had turned to total and complete crap because three, presumably, grown men cannot resist the urge to maul eachother in public.

Holy hell.

Pok, keep me out of this. I have nothing to do with these exchanges, no question of mine has gone unanswered and I don't appreciate being dragged into it. I completely and utterly despise being USED for crap like this.

Your last 4 posts to Dan

What am I, chopped liver over here? Answer me, Daniel.

Might you be so kind (and stop pussy footing around 'cause it's ticking me off) and reply to the post I made to you?

Daniel,

I asked you a simple question to which you have offered no reply. Perhaps it's because you're so used to posters jerking you around and in turn, jerking them around that you're reluctant to communicate with someone who is upfront and straightforward with you. That's your problem. My problem is that I made a post the intent of which I think you misunderstood and I could be scrapbooking right now instead of attempting to communicate with you which would be far more enjoyable then placing importance on one who misunderstood and possibly took offense to my comments.

My comments regarding gossip/speculation/buzzing had nothing whatsoever to do with you or Eric. Nothing. I was speaking in general terms based on my "first hand" observations and what I have witnessed in real life on the part of LDS women.

For future reference...if I choose to criticize you, Daniel, I would name you. I don't screw around and make subtle references, and you should have no problem whatsoever knowing if I were referring to you because my post would have your name on it.

Jersey "revving up the Cricut-thank you, Provo Crafts!" Girl

Stop "yelling" at me, ya ding dong. You placed your "Not so far as I know" under the chopped liver question. PhD, can't respond on point. Go figure.

Nobody around here likes you, ya know.

And I have failed to see Dan answer you, so I will abide by your "no question of mine has gone unanswered" and excuse me and forgive me.

[_Daniel Peterson]

The French saying, Jersey Girl, means roughly "This animal is very wicked: When attacked, it defends itself."

GP, I really don't hold grudges. Ray A can attest to that, when he's not angry with me. I'm happy to be mutually respectful. But if you pronounce me, publicly, to be a dishonorable person who is happy to harm others, and so forth, it's very possible that I'll respond. I'm not the monster of Scratch's fantasies, nor the uncaring ideological hack of Ray's latest posts.

For Pokatator: (1) No, I don't believe that Jersey Girl is chopped liver. (2) Yes, I will reply [have replied] to Jersey Girl. (3) NO. [As already answered.] (4) NO. [As already answered.]

I think you should be concerned about this statement from Eric:

If I were to judge the Mormon culture by its largest Internet ambassador, Daniel C. Peterson, I would loathe them all. What he does - and seems to stand for - is a disgusting form of amateurish damage control for Internet Mormons and considers only the reputation of his faith, not the real people he is involved in hurting. I would view Mormons as I view him, not as simple people who believe what they believe and are willing to live and let live.

I'm more concerned about the thinly-veiled death threat that I had to report to the local police a few weeks back.

I take all criticisms seriously. But I take most seriously the criticisms that I think have merit.

Of course, I know nothing.

Not true. You're pretty knowledgeable about quite a few things.

But you don't know enough to form a fair judgment of the situation in Eric's family. And you have no reason to choose sides. It's not your responsibility to do so.

And I know you won't accept that his statement has any validity. But it might be a clue to why you draw so much antagonism towards you. Maybe you really need to work on trying to understand ex-Mormons and unbelievers a bit more?

Maybe. But I've spent a great deal of time trying to understand ex-Mormons and unbelievers -- it's one of the reasons I pay attention to this place -- and, if you actually understood me, you'd know that I've never actually found their position at all difficult to grasp.

But you're right. I don't think Eric's comment has much validity.

Why do I attract so much hostility in certain very specific circles? To a significant degree, because I'm willing to speak up, very plainly, for what I believe, and to defend it, and because I show up on message boards.

[_Jersey Girl]

And I have failed to see Dan answer you, so I will abide my your "no question of mine has gone unanswered" and excuse me and forgive me all the way to hell.

I should think by now you'd know me well enough to know that if I have a problem with how a poster is handling him/herself in exchanges with me that I take it up directly with the poster just as I am doing with you now.

First off, in your haste to throw crap at Daniel, you totally omitted his replies to me. Had you taken a second to examine the exchanges you'd see that he did answer my question but placed it under another question I'd ask which was the reason for my "ding dong" remarks to him that you copied and posted. You made yourself look like an over-eager ass in the process.

Secondly, I dislike like ALL HELL your including me in your comments to/about Daniel. If you want to throw crap at Daniel, find your own crap to throw and leave me out of it.

Thirdly, if I want to be a part of a crap throwing pile on, I'll include myself in it.

I have no problem communicating with Daniel on this board. As you can see by my comments to him, I often inject humor so he knows I'm not being a gigantic jerk to him. You might also notice that when a conflict develops between myself and any number of posters on this board, I make every effort to resolve it so that the lines of communication can remain open. I recognize that there are actual human beings behind the keyboard and there's plenty of posters here willing to spend hours lobbing crap at other people without me hopping on the bandwagon.

This board, presumably, is about communication and all too often, it becomes a gratuitous mudslinging contest.

Just leave me out of it, Pok. If I want "in", I'll be there.

[/speech]

[_Jersey Girl]

The French saying, Jersey Girl, means roughly "This animal is very wicked: When attacked, it defends itself."

Thanks, Daniel, now get away from me.

[_Ray A]

And you have no reason to choose sides. It's not your responsibility to do so.

You have already chosen sides in this issue, Dan. You did it when you sent the first email to Eric's step father. I weighed the ethics of this for quite a while, and wondered if I would want to be informed if a child of mine did something similar. I think I would, but, in the past, especially when going through divorce and family breaking up, LOTS of negative things were said about me, and ingrained into my children by "opposition parties". You have no idea how bad this was, but in the course of time more and more "background truth" came out and they now have a better picture. I don't think, in retrospect, I needed any more inflamation that I already had. And this was far more than "mocking the priesthood".

For some perspective on your situation, though:

Here's what Eric wrote on Jul. 3, 2008:

Actually, I hadn't learned you were the snitch yet. I still thought it was Bob Crockett. And you can ask him if I was angry.

Stop lying. Liar.

I learned it was you after talking to my dad about it as we had drinks (his were non-alcoholic, for the record) at his company party. I think this was sometime in April or May.

And I wasn't mad until you displayed an unimaginable level of crassness by suggesting I was insensitive about my little sister's illness.

He confirmed to me that he once held you in high regard until this happened. Here is what beastie wrote a few posts later:

You [DCP] are living a fantasy.

by the way, I want to remind folks that GoodK has, in the past, spoken kindly in regards to not only his father, but crocket and dan. He has tried to help other posters keep some perspective about the characters and nature of these men.

In retrospect, perhaps he was too generous (exempting bob, who has not participated herein).

Much of Eric's subsequent anger has arisen from this. His tolerance for Mormons has become narrower and narrower because of these inflammatory events. But I understand your point of view: You've done nothing wrong, and you owe no one an apology. Maybe it's because you don't, in fact, understand that when you emailed Eric's step-dad, you were taking sides. As marg pointed out, his step-dad already knew his basic ideas. As I recall the post, he said nothing personally derogatory about any member of his family, but questioned the belief in blessings and priesthood power, and wondered how this would help his critically ill sister.

"This animal is very mean. When one attacks it, he defends himself."

Perhaps there are some backyards into which animals should not roam. Defending the faith can indeed be costly.