Eric.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Everyone misreads you, Dan.

Not at all. The vast majority of those with whom I interact appear to understand me pretty well. That's one of the reasons that I don't take outliers all that seriously.

But it's good to know you've undertaken some kind of personal examination. Here's a hint - you won't know how your religious views influence your thinking until you lose them and adopt another worldview. You haven't been through that, so you can't understand the extent to which your religious views influence you, any more than David Koresh (no comparison to you meant here) could understand how wrong and manipulative his views were. If he did, he would have changed his ways.

I certainly understand that you believe that you know me better, on this point, than I know myself.

I trust that you understand that I find that notion utterly ridiculous.

And I stand by my simple point, which has utterly nothing to do with theism or Mormonism: Nobody here has any particular call to judge the private family in question, and nobody here is qualified to do so -- particularly after having heard only one side of a contentious dispute, from a person who has a dog in the fight.

[_Jersey Girl]

WHERE did I state that Eric is incompetant?

Are you on the w[h]ine or something?

You for example, portray Eric as an independent thinking adult and yet you feel a need to hand him his spine on this board. I see your defense of Eric as perhaps the greatest insult you could level at him and in response, he is using you as a vehicle on the thread.

No, it's a case of one man treating the other as if he were incompetant.

Those are criticisms of YOU.

I stated that YOU treat him AS IF HE WERE incompetant.

All of the above are criticisms of YOU and you have proven in full public view that when the criticsm is turned in YOUR direction--you choose to deflect.

[_Ray A]

I stated that YOU treat him AS IF HE WERE incompetant.

You're being disingenuous:

I see your defense of Eric as perhaps the greatest insult you could level at him and in response, he is using you as a vehicle on the thread.

The clear insinuation is that Eric cannot defend himself, and is "using" me because he has "no spine" ("in response").

All of the above are criticisms of YOU and you have proven in full public view that when the criticsm is turned in YOUR direction--you choose to deflect.

I don't call most of what you write "criticism", just angrily pissing in the wind. Most of your posts come across as constantly cranky and complaining, and you rarely contribute much of substance to Mormon Discussions. You could if you really wanted, as an outsider, and as I've said, sometimes you make valid observations. When you can get away from being "pissed off" (one of your most common terms) at this and that.

[_Ray A]

And I stand by my simple point, which has utterly nothing to do with theism or Mormonism:

Come on, Dan, have you forgotten this:

I won't confess his sins in public, but at the risk of stating the obvious, let's just say that if he loved God more than the things of the world he would be a very strong Latter-day Saint. As it is, the "world" has his attention at this time. I hope he will, in time, realize the path he is on has only brought him much pain, much sorrow, and much deprivation. God is at the helm and God will not be mocked. Eventually every knee shall bow before Christ and every tongue will confess His Messiahship. And that includes my son and every self-professed atheist on this list. When he finally gets tired of sin, I think he will make the right decisions, repent, and return. And we will welcome him with open arms. And you and he will probably look back on this thread and have a good laugh together.

(Emphasis added)

Nothing to do with theism or Mormonism?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Nothing to do with theism or Mormonism?

Mostly not, Ray.

You don't know enough to be pronouncing judgment on this.

You really don't.

[_Ray A]

Mostly not, Ray.

"Utterly not", "Mostly not". Can you see how an unbelieving son or daughter would feel by being characterised in such a way? I made my mistakes too when I was in the Church and sometimes expressed similar sentiments, and that's why I said that unless or until you lose your religious beliefs you'll never fully understand how they influence all of your thinking. You will not see it, therefore you will not understand why someone might react very negatively to it.

Granted, we all go through a learning process. The question is, how willing are we to learn?

[_Daniel Peterson]

"Utterly not", "Mostly not". Can you see how an unbelieving son or daughter would feel by being characterised in such a way?

What???????

I meant that the issues have little if anything to do with Mormonism or even theism.

The issues, Ray.

I said nothing about unbelieving sons or daughters. I said that the issues had little if anything to do with Mormonism or theism.

I made my mistakes too when I was in the Church and sometimes expressed similar sentiments, and that's why I said that unless or until you lose your religious beliefs you'll never fully understand how they influence all of your thinking. You will not see it, therefore you will not understand why someone might react very negatively to it.

What you say here is irrelevant to my attitude and to what I've said.

Granted, we all go through a learning process. The question is, how willing are we to learn?

Indeed.

[_Ray A]

What???????

I meant that the issues have little if anything to do with Mormonism or even theism.

The issues, Ray.

And the issues, the way we approach issues, what we think is "right" or "wrong" determines to a large extent how we treat others. I sometimes wonder if you read Eric's posts on this thread? It's like you're talking in a completely different direction, Dan. As if you have relegated what Eric said, and how he feels, to zero. You're not comprehending his feelings. You're not comprehending why he calls Mormonism "a cult". You're not comprehending him. And to say this has nothing to do with Mormonism implies to me you have not read his posts, or you're reading them without trying to understand why he feels the way he does.

Eric wrote:

But the original topic-- It is unfortunate that the Mormon cult mentality has infected so much of my family. I truly resent that.... Mormonism, without a doubt, has had a negative and sizable impact on my life. Without a doubt.

So, is it all Eric's fault? You don't believe him?

I said nothing about unbelieving sons or daughters. I said that the issues had little if anything to do with Mormonism or theism.

They do. See above.

Granted, we all go through a learning process. The question is, how willing are we to learn?

Indeed.

That's right, Dan, throw the ball back in my court and say, "your turn".

I'll let Eric have the last word, because I doubt I'm going to be on this roller coaster for much longer, either:

It is Daniel Peterson that seems to know not what he speaks of. His responses are, for the most part, just blatantly false and misleading. I'm not going to enable his obsessive compulsion by continuing to try and answer him. In fact, I'm pretty sure that he's just talking to himself at this point. I'm content to let my words stand against his.

[_Daniel Peterson]

It's like you're talking in a completely different direction, Dan.

I am, Ray.

As if you have relegated what Eric said, and how he feels, to zero. You're not comprehending his feelings. You're not comprehending why he calls Mormonism "a cult". You're not comprehending him. And to say this has nothing to do with Mormonism implies to me you have not read his posts, or you're reading them without trying to understand why he feels the way he does.

Ray, I've been aware of Eric for many years. I've read his posts. I understand what he's saying. I've also spoken with his stepfather over many years.

It's entirely true that I've failed to sign on or to endorse Eric's position. That is, trust me, not by chance. (I've endorsed nobody's, actually.)

Eric wrote:

But the original topic-- It is unfortunate that the Mormon cult mentality has infected so much of my family. I truly resent that.... Mormonism, without a doubt, has had a negative and sizable impact on my life. Without a doubt.

I know what Eric wrote.

So, is it all Eric's fault? You don't believe him?

I haven't announced a verdict here, and I won't announce a verdict here.

You would be wise to do the same.

I said nothing about unbelieving sons or daughters. I said that the issues had little if anything to do with Mormonism or theism.

They do. See above.

You would be wise not to take a stance on something of which you obviously know even less than I do.

It's folly to enter as a partisan into a contentious issue of human relationships where you have neither the full story nor any real need or obligation or right to do so.

[_Ray A]

It's folly to enter as a partisan into a contentious issue of human relationships where you have neither the full story nor any real need or obligation or right to do so.

No wonder they like you so much on RFM.