Mopologetics and the Sending of Emails

[_William Schryver]

Ray:

Note to self: stay clear of Mr. Schryver.

Believe me, Ray, you should consider me the least of your worries.

Of course, it's not too late. All you have to do is stop qualifying for the curse; heed the words of the angel to Alma:

If thou wilt of thyself be destroyed, seek no more to destroy the church of God.

Otherwise you'll continue on this downward spiral you are so keen to deny.

[_Yoda]

Then reign in your psychopathic posters like Willie the Wanker.

*keeping the paddle out of sight until tming is appropriate*

Calling Master William to the Principal's Office.

[_Gadianton]

Come on guys, why do you entertain such nonsense? Are you telling me that when you were believing LDS that you would have approved of death threats and illegal activity?

Asb, did you see the couple of waterboarding threads over at MAD a while back? The apologists by and large believe passionately in violence.

[_beastie]

Not only do apologists tend to be enthusiastic supporters of torture, but there are some that also long for the good old days of violence against apostates.

Endowed in July 1979. Live session at the Salt Lake Temple. Didn't bother me at all. Thought it was quite fascinating. I especially liked the guy who got to play the role of Satan. He was a good actor. Really sold the part well. Not that I understood it all at the time. Who could? But I wasn't shocked or repulsed by any of it, not even the penalty stuff. Made it seem more serious, I suppose. I kind of regretted it when they dispensed with that part. That, and the preacher guy. I just loved his little speech about the God who is everywhere and nowhere, etc., etc. Classic stuff!

I suppose my only real regret is that the Danites aren't still around to make you apostates pay up for breaking your oaths. Oh, those were the good old days . . .

- William Schryver

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5137&p=126512&hilit=Danites#p126512

[_harmony]

Here is the question, Schmo:

Do *all* of the apologists feel this way? Do all of the apologists feel that they are on a God-appointed mission to annihilate the apostates? Beastie, one of the most knowledgeable and scholarly posters in all of online Mormondom seems to think so. I know that DCP, the de facto leader of contemporary Mopologetics, has stated that he views his role in a divinely-sanctioned light. Also, I think it's worth pointing out that I have never, ever---in the entire history of Mopologetics, be it in print or online---have ever heard an apologist decry this sort of attitude. I have never seen an apologist openly oppose the sort of thing that both Shermer and Schryver have described. And it's chilling. One would hope that one---any---of the apologists would suggest that there is some kind of moral line that should not be crossed, even in defense of the Church, but I have never seen an apologist do this.

I don't see David Bokovoy engaging in this kind of behavior. Or Ben McGuire. Or Kevin Barney. (I don't know that many apologists, but maybe there are more like these guys than I know about). So a blanket condemnation of these guys too doesn't seem quite fair.

[_William Schryver]

Not only do apologists tend to be enthusiastic supporters of torture, but there are some that also long for the good old days of violence against apostates.

Endowed in July 1979. Live session at the Salt Lake Temple. Didn't bother me at all. Thought it was quite fascinating. I especially liked the guy who got to play the role of Satan. He was a good actor. Really sold the part well. Not that I understood it all at the time. Who could? But I wasn't shocked or repulsed by any of it, not even the penalty stuff. Made it seem more serious, I suppose. I kind of regretted it when they dispensed with that part. That, and the preacher guy. I just loved his little speech about the God who is everywhere and nowhere, etc., etc. Classic stuff!

I suppose my only real regret is that the Danites aren't still around to make you apostates pay up for breaking your oaths. Oh, those were the good old days . . .

- William Schryver

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... es#p126512

beastlie, beastlie, beastlie,

You know, I'm just curious -- when-, in your estimation, were the "good old days of violence against apostates"?

From when to when?

How many apostates?

How much violence?

When it comes right down to it, how many slit throats are we talking about here?

[_dblagent007]

All this talk of cursings reminded me of this, from someone that was cursed by Joseph Smith himself:

"I have prospered very much, notwithstanding Joseph's curse; I have done a large medical practice -- think I have been fairly successful; am retiring from it as fast as I can."

William Law 1809-1892

Of course, I also vaguely remember something about a dry cleaning establishment burning to the ground after its employees desecrated some garments and were cursed for it.

Who knows?

[_beastie]

You know, I'm just curious -- when-, in your estimation, were the "good old days of violence against apostates"?

From when to when?

How many apostates?

How much violence?

When it comes right down to it, how many slit throats are we talking about here?

You expect them to leave a certified list?

Who knows exactly what violence was enacted against apostates and other sinners. But certainly leaders of the church made statements that either strongly suggest or flat-out state that they would approve of such acts.

You're the one yearning for the good old days when danites made apostates pay. Just what did you think danites were doing to make apostates pay?

[_William Schryver]

All this talk of cursings reminded me of this, from someone that was cursed by Joseph Smith himself:

"I have prospered very much, notwithstanding Joseph's curse; I have done a large medical practice -- think I have been fairly successful; am retiring from it as fast as I can."

William Law 1809-1892

Of course, I also vaguely remember something about a dry cleaning establishment burning to the ground after desecrating some garments and being cursed for it.

Who knows?

And yet Law was, without a doubt, "severed from the ordinances of my house," and he and his posterity have been denied the Priesthood.

I guess it all depends on what you value most. Law (and most of the people here) discern no value in the Priesthood or the ordinances that it administers. Therefore they are not sensible of any loss on account of being deprived of such things; they judge themselves purely on the basis of their apparent prosperity in this life--much as Ray illustrated above with his listing of his children's achievements ($100,000 salary and such).

Perhaps ... and I'm just advancing this is as a possibility, mind you ... some curses don't become fully appreciated until after this life.

Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the Lord of hosts?

And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.

Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

I have never felt ashamed to say that I fear the Lord, and that I think upon his name. Perhaps, in so doing, I have not "profited" as much in this life as I might have otherwise. Perhaps, in the minds of some, my walk of life has seemed "mournful." Perhaps I've missed out on some things that might have been intensely gratifying. Perhaps I have unwisely sacrificed many things I might have enjoyed in this life in a vain hope that something better awaits me in the life to come.

But I think not. I have, on several occasions, caught a fleeting glimpse of what awaits those who patiently keep their souls. And I confirm what is written:

Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

[_William Schryver]

You know, I'm just curious -- when-, in your estimation, were the "good old days of violence against apostates"?

From when to when?

How many apostates?

How much violence?

When it comes right down to it, how many slit throats are we talking about here?

You expect them to leave a certified list?

Who knows exactly what violence was enacted against apostates and other sinners. But certainly leaders of the church made statements that either strongly suggest or flat-out state that they would approve of such acts.

You're the one yearning for the good old days when danites made apostates pay. Just what did you think danites were doing to make apostates pay?

As I suspected.

Quite frankly, dear beastlie, I have never come across so much as a scintilla of evidence that "Danites" ever made any apostates pay for anything.

And therefore, since I know the historical facts about "Danites" and apostates being made to pay for their traducements, when I wax nostalgic about "the good old days," it must necessarily follow that I am pining for something other than slit throats and spilled innards.

Indeed, I miss the moral clarity of the majestic rhetoric that used to issue forth from Joseph Smith in Nauvoo and from the pulpit of the Tabernacle in the 19th century. Those were the days! Nowadays, it's all become, at times, a little too antiseptic and politically correct for my personal tastes.

From my personal perspective, there's nothing that warms the soul quite like reading the accounts of Brigham Young damning apostates all to hell!