Question re: 4th July

[_gramps]

Joey wrote:

And let's not forget [Doctrine and Covenants 58:21] "Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land." Something that your founding prophet seemed to pay little attention to during his moments of need/desire.

And we know how much truck the 'law-abiding Mormons' gave to that scripture during the round-up in the late 1880s, don't we.

Weren't they flying the U.S. flag at half mast during this period?

When did the Mormons actually start believing it was a good idea to follow the laws of the land, anyway? Which Prophet got that finally turned around? I'm guessing it took place around the same time they took the 'oath' out of the temple ceremony. Anyone have a better idea?

Watching the Tabernacle Choir singing at Presidential inauguration ceremonies would make one think they always loved their country, but I guess it wasn't always so. Maybe it is a bread and butter thing: which side and all that.

[_Phaedrus Ut]

Patriots' Day in Boston reminded me a lot of the 24th in Utah. Neither are considered more important than the 4th per se but are a point of local celebration and enjoyment.


Phaedrus

[_Daniel Peterson]

Oh geeeez. How many parades and firework shows in Utah were done on either the 3rd of July or the 5th of July when the 4th landed on a Sunday?????

And the fact that, in order to avoid having parties on the sabbath, Mormons have sometimes held patriotic celebrations on either the day before or the day after Independence Day demonstrates that they aren't or weren't patriotic . . . how, exactly?

Hyperpatriotism ???? Perhaps a Provo definition is called for here!!!!

!!!!!!

Nope.

And let's not forget [Doctrine and Covenants 58:21] "Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land." Something that your founding prophet seemed to pay little attention to during his moments of need/desire.

I think there is something about words vs actions here!

Uh huh. Your claim is that Mormons were less patriotic -- failed, to some greater degree than today, to "recognize America's greatness" -- when you lived in Utah roughly twenty years ago. That would be approximately 1989.

Joseph Smith died in 1844.

And we know how much truck the 'law-abiding Mormons' gave to that scripture during the round-up in the late 1880s, don't we.

An interesting topic for discussion. But irrelevant to Joey's claim about the late 1980s.

Watching the Tabernacle Choir singing at Presidential inauguration ceremonies would make one think they always loved their country, but I guess it wasn't always so.

The Tabernacle Choir has performed at six (6) presidential inaugurals. The first of these was for Democrat Lyndon B. Johnson on 1 January 1965. That was approximately a quarter of a century before the time that Joey points to as a period when Mormons were relatively unpatriotic and did not "recognize America's greatness."

[_gramps]

I know what you are saying.

I would love to discuss the Mormons' earlier views about being laws unto themselves. I just can't figure out when they gave that thinking up. I am even beginning to think that in some Mormon families, the 1880s attitude never changed. I have read some posts over on the MADness board that would suggest that.

I think the change happened earlier perhaps in our family because my ancestors took the pledge and committed to following the law. (My gg grandfather did lose his church callings and was the laughing stock of the city for taking the pledge, but I respect him for that.) While there were a few renegades in the extended family, I look up to and respect my ancestors for their decisions in this regard.

But, I am a little sympathetic to what Joey is saying. When I was a kid growing up in SLC, our family never celebrated the 4th. (I lived in SLC from '64 to '84.) But every 24th, we went down to Zions Bank and watched the parade from my grandfathers' air-conditioned office in the Kennecott Building.

At least in our family, the 24th was everything. The 4th was never celebrated. I am sure that was not the case with all Mormon families in SLC at the time, however.

[_harmony]

But every 24th, we went down to Zions Bank and watched the parade from my grandfathers' air-conditioned office in the Kennecott Building.

You have my abject sympathy. Who makes a kid sit inside when there's a parade going on? How is he supposed to get any candy from inside? Hear the band? Smell the horses? Get a free animal balloon from the clowns? Geez, gramps! You poor kid!

[_krose]

Where I grew up, both days were celebrated evenly (flag-raising and prayer ceremony, dime races and watermelon bust in the town square), with the exception that there was a parade on the 24th, and none on the 4th. I think it's still pretty much the same (but unless you work for a Utah-based company you're not likely to get the 24th off).

It's a fairly divisive day, because instead of it being an actual statewide holiday, it's really a Mormon holiday observed by the state, which annoys many non-Mormons I know, and makes them feel like outsiders.

The weird thing about Utah is that very few people consider January 4th to be a day to be celebrated, if they even know what the day is. (Hint: Statehood Day)

[_Joey]

Oh geeeez. How many parades and firework shows in Utah were done on either the 3rd of July or the 5th of July when the 4th landed on a Sunday?????

And the fact that, in order to avoid having parties on the sabbath, Mormons have sometimes held patriotic celebrations on either the day before or the day after Independence Day demonstrates that they aren't or weren't patriotic . . . how, exactly?

Hyperpatriotism ???? Perhaps a Provo definition is called for here!!!!

!!!!!!

Nope.

And let's not forget [Doctrine and Covenants 58:21] "Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land." Something that your founding prophet seemed to pay little attention to during his moments of need/desire.

I think there is something about words vs actions here!

Uh huh. Your claim is that Mormons were less patriotic -- failed, to some greater degree than today, to "recognize America's greatness" -- when you lived in Utah roughly twenty years ago. That would be approximately 1989.

Joseph Smith died in 1844.

And we know how much truck the 'law-abiding Mormons' gave to that scripture during the round-up in the late 1880s, don't we.

An interesting topic for discussion. But irrelevant to Joey's claim about the late 1980s.

Watching the Tabernacle Choir singing at Presidential inauguration ceremonies would make one think they always loved their country, but I guess it wasn't always so.

The Tabernacle Choir has performed at six (6) presidential inaugurals. The first of these was for Democrat Lyndon B. Johnson on 1 January 1965. That was approximately a quarter of a century before the time that Joey points to as a period when Mormons were relatively unpatriotic and did not "recognize America's greatness."

First, forgive cuz I just don't have time to sit in front of a computer screen all day and do these neat cutnpaste things like peterson. This is a blakbrry hack job from a windy fairway here at Glenwilde.

Second I need to do a contractual thing here and define: Mr Peterson, your Reverence, the Provo Pope, Mr. Professor, Orems Oracle, Hamblin's Helper, the MJ of MB's (message boards), Doctor "P", the Consierge of Cougar Country, the Wizard of Olivewood, and anything that does confer the acronym "Da__y" (from hereinafter referred to as "His Greatness").

Now, and I know His greatness, may object, but nowhere in our great country have I witnessed a whole state avoid recognizing and celebrating the 4th of July on another day to avoid the sabbath. Patriotism is just that. And "Hyperpatriotism" would never allow such church run protocal to dictate the country's day of patriotism!! Not clear thinking at all, even if only for debate!! Perhaps a Provo mental lapse thing.

And, why the hell bring up all those patriotic quotes from your D&Cs which were excerpts from the same place I took my quote from if there is a supposed difference you claim??? Perhaps another Provo thing!

My point being is that if you refer us to words from the same scripture I quote from, what would gives us comfort that your leaders carry out such words in them if, as I pointed out, your founding prophet couldn't???

Definately a Provo thing!

[_harmony]

Now, and I know His greatness, may object, but nowhere in our great country have I witnessed a whole state avoid recognizing and celebrating the 4th of July on another day to avoid the sabbath. Patriotism is just that. And "Hyperpatriotism" would never allow such church run protocal to dictate the country's day of patriotism!! Not clear thinking at all, even if only for debate!! Perhaps a Provo mental lapse thing.

You know, I never thought of that before. You're right; I don't think that happens anywhere else.

Utah is one of the states in my agency, and in order for employees in Utah to get the 24th of July off work, they have to give up another holiday, so they give up Veteran's Day, which the rest of us get (with the further exception of our Nevada employees, who take Nevada Day off).

[_Daniel Peterson]

First, forgive cuz I just don't have time to sit in front of a computer screen all day and do these neat cutnpaste things like peterson.

It doesn't require sitting in front of a computer all day to write substantive posts, Joey. Don't use that excuse.

So far today, I've finished an article, created an elaborate PowerPoint presentation on ancient ascension stories, gone over plans for a new book and my chapter in it with its editor, helped to plan out a potential multi-million-dollar four-part film on Islamic art for television, and attended the open house for the Oquirrh Mountain Temple. And, of course, refuted you yet again. (In the latter case, with one hand tied behind my back, just to make it fair.)

And, after I finish working on my notes for a lecture later this week in Las Vegas ("only in Provo," as you'll point out) I'll be out tonight doing counseling and interviews, from 6:30 PM until roughly midnight.

nowhere in our great country have I witnessed a whole state avoid recognizing and celebrating the 4th of July on another day to avoid the sabbath. Patriotism is just that.

"Patriotism" is violating your religious beliefs about sabbath observance in order to celebrate Independence Day on 4 July rather than on 3 July or 5 July?

Do you think that conservative Jews are unpatriotic?

I would have thought that unpatriotic Mormons, as you say we were in 1989, who did not, as you say, "recognize America's greatness," would have shown their lack of patriotism by not celebrating Independence Day at all.

Incidentally, I doubt that the "whole state" of Utah has ever, in modern history, totally ignored 4 July.

Did you know, by the way, that Utah is, by most measures, the reddest of the "red states"? Whatever you think of such politics, conservative Republicans aren't typically accused of being unpatriotic.

Ronald Reagan got 78.2% of Utah's vote in 1980, his highest state percentage by a considerable distance.

In 1984, he received 74.5% of Utah's vote. Again, that was his highest state percentage.

In 1988, just before the year in which you noticed the lack of patriotism in Utah, George H. W. Bush received his highest percentage of votes in . . . Utah.

In 1992, three years after you discovered the lack of patriotism in the state of Utah, Bill Clinton received his lowest percentage of votes in Utah. He got 24.65%, and came in third, behind not only George H. W. Bush but H. Ross Perot.

Again, whatever you may think of their political positions, people who vote conservative Republican aren't conventionally described as unpatriotic types who don't "recognize America's greatness."

And "Hyperpatriotism" would never allow such church run protocal to dictate the country's day of patriotism!!

"Church protocol" doesn't "dictate the country's day of patriotism." Latter-day Saint beliefs affect the lives of Latter-day Saints. That's one of the things, if you'll recall, that the Republic was founded to permit.

Not clear thinking at all, even if only for debate!!

Always dancing the ridiculous victory jig.

Perhaps a Provo mental lapse thing. . . . Perhaps another Provo thing. . . . Definately a Provo thing!

Does everybody in Dogpatch have this obsessive inferiority complex about Provo?

And, why the hell bring up all those patriotic quotes from your D&Cs which were excerpts from the same place I took my quote from if there is a supposed difference you claim???

Being a patriot and loving the Constitution doesn't entail agreeing with every law passed by Congress and every decision of every court and every statute of every state and municipality.

Ever heard of Martin Luther King? (He now has a national holiday named after him.)

Anybody who knows anything about Latter-day Saints, and particularly about the Latter-day Saints of the past fifty to sixty years, knows that Latter-day Saints have a strong tendency to be superpatriotic Americans. In fact, we're often mocked for it. So it's richly amusing to watch you attempting to portray modern Mormons as sullenly indifferent to patriotism and unwilling to "recognize America's greatness."

My point being is that if you refer us to words from the same scripture I quote from, what would gives us comfort that your leaders carry out such words in them if, as I pointed out, your founding prophet couldn't???

"Mormons exhibit a unique blend of American patriotism, rugged sectarian insularity, and a wariness toward secular authority borne of having experienced government persecution."
Laurie Maffly-Kipp, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=3594

"Mormons have proved to be extra loyal to the United States."
Stanley Hauerwas, Duke University (an ethicist who deplores Mormon patriotism)
http://www.themormonworker.org/articles ... uerwas.php

"I've always been a bit surprised by Mormon patriotism."
http://www.hunterbear.org/flags.htm

"We who are friends of the Mormons, their patriotism, their family values, will not falter in our continued support of these dear Americans."
Rabbi Nachum Schifren
http://www.lawatchdog.com/RabbiShifren- ... 12008.html

"Mormonism is so tied to american patriotism"
http://en.wordpress.com/tag/patriotism/

"During an Interfaith Conference on War and Peace in Salt Lake City the idea was presented that Mormons (members of the LDS Church), who are deeply patriotic, won't protest the war in Iraq because it would be unpatriotic to speak out against the Bush administration about the war. It is true that members of the LDS faith tend to be patriotic."
http://paperclippings.blogspot.com/2007 ... President.html

[_harmony]

Republican does not equal Patriotic.

Just sayin'.