What would you choose, if a choice you had?

[_Roger]

I'm still stuck on this:

Hi, Mikwut.

We are in agreement that people have no meaningful choice regarding their beliefs.

Could either you or mikwut perhaps elaborate on that?

I take it for granted that I indeed have a meaningful choice. You're telling me I could not choose to reject the Bible and become an atheist or embrace Joseph Smith and become a Mormon? Does not compute. Please explain.

[_mikwut]

Roger,

The basic thought is that most of our beliefs aren't volitional, they are dispositional - we can't help them they simply obtain as responses to states of affairs in the world. Faith is not simply reducible to belief and my understanding of it scripturally is that belief is the rather mundane ("even the demons believe") part of the synergistic composition of faith. We know our beliefs aren't (at least totally) voluntary, they happen to us and we experience that. I simply cannot believe the moon is made of cheese no matter my desire or choice in the matter.

my regards, mikwut

[_Gazelam]

Kim,

Music is a great part of Heaven, as Lehi testified in 1 Nephi 1:8.

Dance they in a ring in heaven
All the blessed in that garden
Where the love divine abideth
Which is all aglow with love.

In that ring dance all the blessed
In that ring dance all the angels
Go they before the Bridegroom Dance
All of them for love.

In that court is joyfulness
Of a love that’s fathomless.
All of them go to the dancing
For the Savior whom they love.

- Maragret Taylor Fisk

Further study - The Genesis of the Round Dance

[_KimberlyAnn]

Kimberly,

Thank you for the response, it is truly beautiful.

I went to law school in Norman, Oklahoma and part of my beliefs were reformed while I was there and it remains part of my song.

my best regards Kimberly,

Mikwut

A Sweet Sound

KA

[_silentkid]

Mikwut, would you prefer to have a brain operation such that you are oblivious to realities and problems of life, but are much happier? Personally I wouldn't. But there are many people who because of brain injuries are happier people afterwards due to brain changes which have dulled their perceptions. Come to think of it, that's why many people take mind altering drugs. It makes them happier, they are less aware of their problems.

I read an amazing novel written by Richard Powers called The Echo Maker. It deals with the idea you present here. I highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in the complexities of the brain.

[_Gazelam]

Mikwut,

It is often said that the Holy Ghost brings all things to our remembrance. Your views regarding belief are correct in that people seem to be predisposed as to what they believe to be correct. Although in ancient times there were numerous Gods, they were set into a family unit. Odin, Zeus, Ra were all Father figures. They war between brothers is displayed as well, as in Osiris and Set, Thor and Loki, etc..

All of us passed thorugh a Veil of Forgetfulness when we came to earth, and oftentimes when we hear the true gospel preached it is in reality bringing to our memories those things we learned in the pre-existence. It does a great deal for a persons self esteem to realize that they are a child of God, and that they came from his presence into this world. When someone hears the gospel they are in reality relearning what they have always known, and the gospel has a familiar spirit when it is preached to them.

Gaz

[_beastie]

Good question, although I’d like to reframe it just a bit. This is what I’d like to be true, but do not believe is true. I’m not sure I can even adequately describe what I’ve envisioned in the past.

My vision of how I’d like the world to really work doesn’t depend on one godbeing, but does include the existence of conscious, joyful “energy”, for lack of a better word, of all living creatures. After death, I wish all the best out of all living creatures could unite into one massive explosion of awareness, joy, and unity. I think that’s what we’re all looking for, in this life, anyway. We can attain it to certain degrees, but not to the extent we really crave. I often wonder if this craving originated in the womb, where we were one with mother. It would be nice to finally get that, after death – and to get it in a way that would unite us with not only those we love but lost in death, but to others whom we now embrace in a way we never could in this world – because we finally see that we are one.

I once read a book to one of my classes, I believe it was called My Teacher is an Alien. It was a silly little book, but one part really struck me. The alien counsel from other planets were considering whether or not to annihilate the human race due to our violent propensities. In the end, they decided they could not do so because human beings were rare in that we actually were one organism – and just didn’t realize it. There’s something about that idea that touched me.

Aside from the details of how I wish the world would really be, I do wish I could believe I will see my loved ones after death. It is hard to lose people we love, and to only be able to see and love them again in our dreams.

When I lost one of my dear friends to cancer a few years ago, I really did try to believe I would see her again. It didn’t work. I know my beliefs are involuntary, but maybe others choose theirs. Who knows.

[_marg]

You bring up an interesting point Mikwut when you say "I simply cannot believe the moon is made of cheese no matter my desire or choice in the matter."

There is no reason to believe it is made of cheese, And you have knowledge which you appreciate to some extent is objective presented to you via education which relies upon the evolution of scientific knowledge. And you feel quite comfortable assuming the moon is not made of cheese and that science has a good appreciation of what the moon is made of.

On the other hand faith based beliefs for which not only is there no evidence but evidence is unlikely to ever surface, i.e. knowledge of Mormonism claims of Reformed Egyptian or brass plates taken by an angel up to heaven are impossible to disprove if they weren't actualities in the first place. A universal claim which lack objective evidence such as God of the Bible exists or a negative claims such as there are no 200 feet tall homo sapiens living somewhere else in the universe...if these are beliefs...and they are supported only by faith...they can not be disproven. So the only way to change those sorts of beliefs can not be direct evidence but through reasoning and evidence which is related but not direct.

Hence faith based beliefs are very difficult to change...and particularly when an individual looks upon "faith" as a positive method for determining truths. On the whole people do not critically evalute faith based beliefs. If there is no motivating factor to evaluate why should they?

[_Seven]

I entered a discussion on the MAD board regarding the voluntariness of our beliefs. Those of you who I have discussed this with know that I am a proponent that our beliefs are involuntary. If we put that actual discussion on the shelf and assume beliefs (particularly spiritual beliefs, i.e. existence of God, afterlife, faith, repentance etc...) are involuntary then I ask the non-believers what world picture would you WANT or desire to be the most accurate towards reality if you could indeed just will yourself to a belief in it? Or, rather, would you choose the atheism (if you so hold to such) if you could choose otherwise?

my regards,

mikwut

I agree with you in terms of losing faith. I was unable to overcome the knowledge I had of church history to retain a belief in all the claims of the church. My brain won't allow me to do the mental gymnastics that apologists can. I did not seek or choose to lose my religion. In fact, it was just the opposite.
I was desperate to save what I loved and treasured.
It was my entire idenity and future. My life plan was shattered. It was the most devestating painful experience of my life and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. I don't see how anyone could think that was voluntary. I was terrified to lose my eternal family and knew the consequences would be great if I didn't find a way to keep believing.
I tried everything to reconvert myself back into believing as I once did...
It wasn't possible.

I know this is a contradiction, but when I look back at my experiences as a TBM, I can see how I voluntarily created the testimony I thought I had. I felt as if God was withholding His love from me for not answering my prayers in gaining a sure witness that others had. I did everything in my power to gain a testimony and began to see and feel things as spiritual
communication from God that were probably emotion.
However, there were pressures on me to conform and having been raised as a BIC indoctrinated Mormon, that made most of my beliefs on God involuntary.


If I could choose what kind of God to believe in.....
One that follows the principles taught by Jesus Christ.

One that unconditionally loves His children and finds a way to reconcile all of us back to Him.

One that gives personal revelation of how I should be living, instead of requiring obedience to the opinions of "Prophets."

A God who does not command atrocities and harmful immoral behavior in violation of His eternal laws. (i.e. polygamy, Patriarchy, racism, genocide, etc.)

A God who does not require ordinances for eternal salvation making that the whole purpose for a restored religion.
A God who does not require a lifetime of performing these ordinances for dead people, but instead allows me to devote my life in Christ through compassionate service for the living.

A God who either intervenes and saves us all from evil, or doesn't intervene at all.

A God who is not confusing.


Basically, what I believe now. I can't believe in a God that is anything else. My mind and heart won't allow me to.
I could never choose atheism (I struggle with avoiding it and understand how others don't believe). I would have to create God if I lost all faith.

[_truth dancer]

I take it for granted that I indeed have a meaningful choice. You're telling me I could not choose to reject the Bible and become an atheist or embrace Joseph Smith and become a Mormon? Does not compute. Please explain.

A couple of thoughts on this...

I believe that it is very difficult (impossible), to believe something that conflicts with our experience of reality. Now, our experiences of course can change, consequently altering our beliefs but I don't think we can pick and choose what we want to believe if it contradicts our experience.

Can you make yourself believe the moon is made of cheese? Or the sun is green jello?

Now, when it comes to the unknown, let us say the pre-existence, people can make up any story they wish and people can believe whatever they wish because it is not contradicting any experience or anyone's sense of reality; as I mentioned, anyone's guess is as good as any other. But, I don't think we can make ourselves believe whatever we wish.

People believed the world was flat until they could "see" that this was not so; similarly, people believed the Gods were creating earthquakes to kill evil communities until the knowledge of fault lines moved into human awareness. Early Mormons believed the promised land was saved for Nephi & Co., that evolution was a Satanic trick, that Native Americans were actually Lamanites, etc. etc. but as knowledge comes forth, these sorts of things are more difficult (impossible for some) to believe.

In sum, I don't think we just choose that in which we believe.

~td~