What would you choose, if a choice you had?

[_harmony]

When I lost one of my dear friends to cancer a few years ago, I really did try to believe I would see her again.

Patti. Peggy. Judy's sister. And so many others.

I think I need Kimberly's music.

[_DonBradley]

I entered a discussion on the MAD board regarding the voluntariness of our beliefs. Those of you who I have discussed this with know that I am a proponent that our beliefs are involuntary. If we put that actual discussion on the shelf and assume beliefs (particularly spiritual beliefs, i.e. existence of God, afterlife, faith, repentance etc...) are involuntary then I ask the non-believers what world picture would you WANT or desire to be the most accurate towards reality if you could indeed just will yourself to a belief in it? Or, rather, would you choose the atheism (if you so hold to such) if you could choose otherwise?

Meek,

Anyone who wouldn't choose immortality and ultimate meaning is a moron with a capital "M." I've heard people say they wouldn't want to live forever, and I'm baffled. (Frankly, I don't believe them.)

I haven't read through the thread, so I don't know to whom I may have just applied the label "moron," but perhaps I'll find out...

Don

[_gramps]

I entered a discussion on the MAD board regarding the voluntariness of our beliefs. Those of you who I have discussed this with know that I am a proponent that our beliefs are involuntary. If we put that actual discussion on the shelf and assume beliefs (particularly spiritual beliefs, i.e. existence of God, afterlife, faith, repentance etc...) are involuntary then I ask the non-believers what world picture would you WANT or desire to be the most accurate towards reality if you could indeed just will yourself to a belief in it? Or, rather, would you choose the atheism (if you so hold to such) if you could choose otherwise?

Meek,

Anyone who wouldn't choose immortality and ultimate meaning is a moron with a capital "M." I've heard people say they wouldn't want to live forever, and I'm baffled. (Frankly, I don't believe them.)

I haven't read through the thread, so I don't know to whom I may have just applied the label "moron," but perhaps I'll find out...

Don

Sounds boring to me. I guess I am your first (and perhaps only?) Moron (with a capital M).

So be it! Life is cool and all, but I don't wish it forever.

[_Some Schmo]

This was a good thread for me. It’s helped sort of reframe what I think about this topic.

Given my experience with Mormons / religious people in general (not to mention children), I’ve thought for the longest time that it was obvious people chose what they wanted to believe; they just didn’t do it consciously. People delude themselves all the time. Denial is a powerful function of the brain. People choose what provides the most comfort given each individual’s unique circumstances. And in our day to day living, we focus on the things that support our beliefs and dismiss/ignore the things that don’t. I still believe this to a large degree.

But after reading several of the thoughtful posts here, it occurs to me that there really are certain properties of the brain that actually make what’s comfortable to it require certain choices, or in other words, only one choice, or no choice at all.

I guess the whole thing strikes me as a sort of strange paradox. You choose what you have to choose because you have no choice. It’s kind of like the choice, “You can eat this slug or I’ll shoot you.” I think most people wouldn’t consider that much of a choice, even though at its most fundamental level, it is.

As for what I’d choose if I could believe anything, I guess I’d believe this was all just a great big life simulator created strictly for me, and I can pay to ride it as many times as I like.

[_JohnStuartMill]

How does a Creator's purpose for our lives imbue them with a "meaning" any more profound than the one we construct for ourselves? I'm very skeptical that a "meaning" that is not subjectively created is even properly called by that name.

I addressed this in another thread:

Let's do a thought experiment: what if it were discovered that we were created by a superintelligent alien race, who knew that our wars would provide them with gladiatorial entertainment? Would that imply that war is the meaning of our existence? I reject that conclusion; I believe that we can create meaning for our existence apart from our creators' purpose. (The erroneous conclusion reminds of the is-ought fallacy committed by the people who say that if humans evolved to commit infanticide and rape, then those crimes could not be gainsaid.) Analogously, I believe that, if the Mormons are right that God put us on this Earth to fulfill the plan of salvation, then it doesn't follow that celestial procreation is the meaning of our existence. Ditto for every other conception of God.

I also fail to see how extending our lifespan infinitely brings meaning to temporal life. In the other thread, mikwut posed this question:

Impasse does become unavoidable, we can just put all our cards on the table and the chips fall where they may. I at least leave the table as friends. But, let me try a thought experiment in return for you, let's say a pill is discovered in which taking the pill on January 1st of each year guarantees you will live one more year - if you stop taking the pill you will die that year. At what year is your finite year of life no less profound than the next and voluntarily you fail to take the pill?

The failure of heaven to impart meaning becomes apparent when one realizes that this question could easily be posed to a celestial being. There's no characteristic of heaven that makes it any more meaningful of earthly life, unless you want to simply define heaven as being more meaningful than earthly life. I get the impression that this is what mikwut is trying to do, which is kind of sad, because it's a pretty obvious example of begging the question.

[_EAllusion]

\


Meek,

Anyone who wouldn't choose immortality and ultimate meaning is a moron with a capital "M." I've heard people say they wouldn't want to live forever, and I'm baffled. (Frankly, I don't believe them.)

I haven't read through the thread, so I don't know to whom I may have just applied the label "moron," but perhaps I'll find out...

Don

Hmmmm. If I take this post to read, "Who wouldn't want to live forever and ever with ultimate fulfillment of their desires, then I agree with you. But if that's what you are saying, I think it runs the risk of just begging the question. It very well could be that it isn't fulfilling to be alive for a trillion years. If you simple defined an eternal existence as maximally fulfilling, that trivially solves the issue. But I think it is an open question whether we would not tire of existing after a sufficient amount of time.

I do know that if I'm still being fulfilled a trillion years from now, whatever that "me" is probably isn't anything like me now. At that point it makes it tricky to say that I am existing then in a meaningful sense because I'm so radically different.

I'm taking it for granted by capital "M" meaning you are talking about something like perfect desire fulfillment. In, reality that statement is more ambiguous. Many people, especially the religious, instead would interpret that just as some external teleological goal to their existence. But it doens't follow from there existing a teleological goal to your existence that it is a desireable thing. If I was created to live for ever and had the capital "M" meaning of being tortured forever in hell, I would not be happy with this state of affairs.

Finally, it's worth pointing out that Mikwut isn't asking if we'd like Mormonism to be true if we could wish anything we want to be true. I think that's how some are interpreting this. He is asking if we'd believe in Mormonism if we simply could choose our beliefs. That's a separate question. I'd like to live a supernaturally long time with a great deal of personal satisfaction. But if I could choose to believe whatever I wanted, I still wouldn't believe that is going to be the case because I prefer my beliefs are tethered to reality. I'm not going to choose to believe things I know are unwarranted.