Who are the Lamanites now?

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_Ten Bear
_Emeritus
Posts: 251
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Re: Who are the Lamanites now?

Post by _Ten Bear »

The Nehor wrote:

1) Save space, you say this is ridiulous but the Book of Mormon is not primarily a historical text. If some puritan had decided to write a religious history of his colony on landing in America with the intent of conversion he would have included stories about prominent leaders doing good things, some stories that warn about bad people, interpretations of scripture, and any spiritual communication he thought was relevant. He might leave out entirely the encounters with natives unless he thought them worth mentioning.

2) He forgot, assuming it was obvious. It was a reality he'd lived with for so long it may not have even occured to him that someone would think otherwise.


Ok. This is where we part ways. I seriously don't think anyone would "leave out entirely the encourters with natives". Just simply, no. People are such an integral part of our very existence and life. It just wouldn't happen. (And hasn't happened, ever, except the Book of Mormon). Even in the most basic of "religous" elements, there would be talk of missionary work. No. Noone just "forgets" or "leaves out". Sorry.


I see nothing odd about a small group of people achieving dominance culturally and politically very fast. Think British Empire. A few settlers show up, marry the natives, and run the area. They had a more advanced culture, literacy, and military (with Laban's sword and any other weapons they brought). If they didn't come as conquerors and mistreat those they found I can see them becoming dominant within a generation.


One, the differences between the Britsh Empire and the people as portrayed in the Book of Mormon are too many to list. No good.

Two, if, say, they were able to penetrate, influence and rule over a society in such manner, then that would definetly be something to write about.
"If False, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions… " - Orson Pratt on The Book of Mormon
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
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Re: Who are the Lamanites now?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Mr. Nehor,

Barring Joseph Smith's declarations on the origins of the Native Americans, how does one treat the following verses from the Book of Mormon?

http://scriptures.LDS.org/en/search?typ ... ecked&Brad Wilcox=1

These were populations descended from Jewish people, although you do have some wiggle room reference the Jaredites. There is a clear lineaged establish, and the Book of Mormon does not say they intermingled with existing Native American populations.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Who are the Lamanites now?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Ten Bear wrote:Two, if, say, they were able to penetrate, influence and rule over a society in such manner, then that would definetly be something to write about.


Sir,

Perhaps the Spaniards are a better example?

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Ten Bear
_Emeritus
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:45 pm

Re: Who are the Lamanites now?

Post by _Ten Bear »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Ten Bear wrote:Two, if, say, they were able to penetrate, influence and rule over a society in such manner, then that would definetly be something to write about.


Sir,

Perhaps the Spaniards are a better example?

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me



Yes. Thank you. And many, many more examples fit as well, I'm sure.
"If False, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions… " - Orson Pratt on The Book of Mormon
_The Nehor
_Emeritus
Posts: 11832
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am

Re: Who are the Lamanites now?

Post by _The Nehor »

harmony wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
Dr. CamWhore,


Uncalled for, Nehor. Don't embarrass the believers any more than normal, okay?


When a believer points out that they've been embarrassed I'll consider switching tactics.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_The Nehor
_Emeritus
Posts: 11832
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am

Re: Who are the Lamanites now?

Post by _The Nehor »

Ten Bear wrote:
The Nehor wrote:

1) Save space, you say this is ridiulous but the Book of Mormon is not primarily a historical text. If some puritan had decided to write a religious history of his colony on landing in America with the intent of conversion he would have included stories about prominent leaders doing good things, some stories that warn about bad people, interpretations of scripture, and any spiritual communication he thought was relevant. He might leave out entirely the encounters with natives unless he thought them worth mentioning.

2) He forgot, assuming it was obvious. It was a reality he'd lived with for so long it may not have even occured to him that someone would think otherwise.


Ok. This is where we part ways. I seriously don't think anyone would "leave out entirely the encourters with natives". Just simply, no. People are such an integral part of our very existence and life. It just wouldn't happen. (And hasn't happened, ever, except the Book of Mormon). Even in the most basic of "religous" elements, there would be talk of missionary work. No. Noone just "forgets" or "leaves out". Sorry.


I see nothing odd about a small group of people achieving dominance culturally and politically very fast. Think British Empire. A few settlers show up, marry the natives, and run the area. They had a more advanced culture, literacy, and military (with Laban's sword and any other weapons they brought). If they didn't come as conquerors and mistreat those they found I can see them becoming dominant within a generation.


One, the differences between the Britsh Empire and the people as portrayed in the Book of Mormon are too many to list. No good.

Two, if, say, they were able to penetrate, influence and rule over a society in such manner, then that would definetly be something to write about.


Why would God or the Prophets want to give us the means to dominate more primitive cultures. Don't we have enough problems?

I disrespectfully disagree with the rest of your post too. I've read a lot of histories and journals written by people from long ago and am often annoyed by the obvious details that I think are critical that are left out. I think it could be left out. I'm surprised you haven't confronted this before while reading historical texts....unless of course you haven't and you are making a judgment on a sample size of one when you say it's never happened except in the Book of Mormon.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_rocket

Re: Who are the Lamanites now?

Post by _rocket »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: There is a clear lineage establish, and the Book of Mormon does not say they intermingled with existing Native American populations.



The Book of Mormon does not discuss intermarrige with indigenous persons, but it does discuss encountering them.
_The Nehor
_Emeritus
Posts: 11832
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am

Re: Who are the Lamanites now?

Post by _The Nehor »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Mr. Nehor,

Barring Joseph Smith's declarations on the origins of the Native Americans, how does one treat the following verses from the Book of Mormon?

http://scriptures.LDS.org/en/search?typ ... ecked&Brad Wilcox=1

These were populations descended from Jewish people, although you do have some wiggle room reference the Jaredites. There is a clear lineage establish, and the Book of Mormon does not say they intermingled with existing Native American populations.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me


As verses that have the word multiplied in them.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Who are the Lamanites now?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

rocket wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: There is a clear lineage establish, and the Book of Mormon does not say they intermingled with existing Native American populations.



The Book of Mormon does not discuss intermarrige with indigenous persons, but it does discuss encountering them.


Hello Sir,

Outside of the indigenous populations established from Middle Eastern immigrants, who are the other indigenous populations the Book of Mormon discusses?

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Who are the Lamanites now?

Post by _harmony »

The Nehor wrote:When a believer points out that they've been embarrassed I'll consider switching tactics.


My TR is as good as yours.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
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