Martha Beck: FARMS reviews sexual abuse claims

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Martha Beck: FARMS reviews sexual abuse claims

Post by _harmony »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
harmony wrote:I suggest you read the entire thread. Several people have already commented on the reviews.

I've read the comments, such as they were.

Have you read the reviews? Have you read even one of the reviews?


Yup, read them all the first time you posted them. So what? They were then, and they are now, still just someone's opinion.

harmony wrote:Since the rest of the family appears to have been oblivious

Whereas you, being much more aware and better placed than they were, know that the alleged abuse actually occurred?


That's why I said "alleged" abuse, Daniel. Or did you skip right over that part?

Having been a childhood victim of abuse myself, of which my parents were blissfully unaware, I can sympathize. Of course Martha's family was oblivious. If the abuse really happened and they were aware of it, it would be really stupid to admit it now. So the logical response in either case would be to deny and to seek to discredit the one who aired the family's dirty laundry.

I didn't bury mine though. I remember still to this day, as does my younger sister (different brothers, same sequence of events though). I didn't tell anyone though, unlike my sister, who stupidly informed my mother of her abuse when it was happening. My mother, of course, didn't believe her, since the abuser was my younger brother, the golden child who was born after a series of miscarriages and still births. I, on the other hand, threw him bodily out of the house when I caught him red handed. Momma wasn't happy with me for a while, but it was worth it.

And if you never read his review, you'll be able much more easily to persist in your conviction that "hearsay" is all he offers.

Ignorance is bliss.


My mother thought so too. Amazing what you can forget, if you really try.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Martha Beck: FARMS reviews sexual abuse claims

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

harmony wrote:Yup, read them all the first time you posted them. So what? They were then, and they are now, still just someone's opinion.

They're heavily stocked with facts, and tied together by logic.

Can you refute any of the facts? Can you identify any errors in the logic?

If not, your comments are mere opinion, unsupported by facts and unjustified by logic.

harmony wrote:That's why I said "alleged" abuse, Daniel. Or did you skip right over that part?

I didn't skip over it, but I was curious to know what they were "oblivious" to if, as you allow to be possible, nothing whatsoever even happened.

Right now, I'm oblivious to Napoleon's standing behind my computer. Mostly because he isn't. But that's not the normal way we use the word oblivious.
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: Martha Beck: FARMS reviews sexual abuse claims

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:If we wanted to look at both sides, where would we be looking?

Since Professor Nibley is dead, it's fairly difficult to speak with him.

However, the following reviews raise very important questions about Martha Nibley Beck's credibility:

http://mi.BYU.edu/publications/review/? ... m=1&id=569

http://mi.BYU.edu/publications/review/? ... m=2&id=587

http://mi.BYU.edu/publications/review/? ... m=1&id=570

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/index. ... raint=none


Thank you. My question was posed to crock who claimed to represent one of the parties and who advised that we look at both sides.

Did you EVEN read my lengthy post on the first page of this thread? I don't know why I even bothered. Seriously.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Martha Beck: FARMS reviews sexual abuse claims

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Jersey Girl wrote:Did you EVEN read my lengthy post on the first page of this thread? I don't know why I even bothered. Seriously.

Yes, I did. You raised valid points.
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: Martha Beck: FARMS reviews sexual abuse claims

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Did you EVEN read my lengthy post on the first page of this thread? I don't know why I even bothered. Seriously.

Yes, I did. You raised valid points.


Two of the issues I raised were in the first link you supplied. You act as though I weren't informed when clearly, I am.

Geez, Daniel!
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Martha Beck: FARMS reviews sexual abuse claims

Post by _harmony »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
harmony wrote:Yup, read them all the first time you posted them. So what? They were then, and they are now, still just someone's opinion.

They're heavily stocked with facts, and tied together by logic.

Can you refute any of the facts? Can you identify any errors in the logic?

If not, your comments are mere opinion, unsupported by facts and unjustified by logic.


What facts are you referring to, in connection with the alleged abuse? According to my mother, no abuse occurred to my sister, and had I informed her of my own situation, she would have said the same thing. Just because no one knew/knows about it doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means ... no one knew.

harmony wrote:That's why I said "alleged" abuse, Daniel. Or did you skip right over that part?

I didn't skip over it, but I was curious to know what they were "oblivious" to if, as you allow to be possible, nothing whatsoever even happened.


If...

Right now, I'm oblivious to Napoleon's standing behind my computer. Mostly because he isn't. But that's not the normal way we use the word oblivious.


I'm sure there are things you are oblivious to, which actually do exist, unlike your poor Napoleon. Perhaps your Napoleon is the pastry kind, instead of the short emperor kind.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Martha Beck: FARMS reviews sexual abuse claims

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

harmony wrote:What facts are you referring to, in connection with the alleged abuse?

We can't get directly at the abuse. It's a she said/he said situation, and he's dead.

But we can test her credibility, and, to put it mildly, her credibility doesn't hold up well. At point after point after point where her claims can be tested, she fails. Unambiguously. Which doesn't exactly strengthen the confidence of reasonable people regarding a claim from her that can't really be tested.

In a she said/he said case where she is manifestly untrustworthy and even prone to the invention of falsehoods (as the reviewers demonstrate she clearly is), he should not be convicted.
_Eric

Re: Martha Beck: FARMS reviews sexual abuse claims

Post by _Eric »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
In a she said/he said case where she is manifestly untrustworthy and even prone to the invention of falsehoods (as the reviewers demonstrate she clearly is), he should not be convicted.


This is a false statement. The "reviewers" have done no such thing.
Last edited by _Eric on Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
_Morrissey
_Emeritus
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:42 am

Re: Martha Beck: FARMS reviews sexual abuse claims

Post by _Morrissey »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:If we wanted to look at both sides, where would we be looking?

Since Professor Nibley is dead, it's fairly difficult to speak with him.

However, the following reviews raise very important questions about Martha Nibley Beck's credibility:

http://mi.BYU.edu/publications/review/? ... m=1&id=569

http://mi.BYU.edu/publications/review/? ... m=2&id=587

http://mi.BYU.edu/publications/review/? ... m=1&id=570

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/index. ... raint=none


With due respect Dan, would we have any reason to believe that there is the slightest chance that any review published by BYU (or by persons representing BYU) would review the book favorably or give any credence to her charges?

For what it's worth, I did not find her accusations to be credible either.

That said, I also suspect that were her accusations compellingly credible, reviews published by BYU would find sufficient cause to dismiss them.

Fealty to the tribe inevitably Trump's fealty to the truth at Mormon Inc.
Post Reply