Someone actually wrote this...

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_moksha
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Re: Someone actually wrote this...

Post by _moksha »

cinepro wrote:
I'm getting married in two weeks. I've never had any "persecution" for being a member, until now. All of my extended family are refusing to come because they can't enter the temple. And it's not even like they're sad about it - they just don't seem to care. My grandma originally said she'd be thrilled to come, but she wrote me an email last night saying that she'd changed her mind because she can't see the ceremony.

I'm very hurt. I thought I was close with my extended family, but their actions speak otherwise. I tried posting my feelings to a wedding community I'm a part of, and everyone pretty much said "serves you right, I don't blame them," which just made me feel worse.


Huh?



I suspect this same story happens continually. Weddings are an occasion when friends and family want to be involved. Probably part of the "Families are Forever" theme. Church leaders must be aware that a converts family is most likely non-mormon. When situations like this arise, discouraging dual ceremonies seems like knowingly driving a wedge between family ties.

:exclaim:
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: Someone actually wrote this...

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

bcspace wrote:
I'm not sure why more LDS couples don't do this. Have a civil wedding, then get sealed later. Everyone wins.

That places temple marriage in a secondary position which is contrary to what the Church is all about.

I disagree. This places THE FAMILY in first position.

However, what my daughter is doing this week is getting sealed in morning and walking down the isle (no bishop, no preacher, but repleat with all the attendants) later in the afternoon after the luncheon to exchange rings.

Congratulations, but be careful. The CHI warns against a ring exchange appearing "to replicate any part of the marriage ceremony[.]"
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Seven
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Re: Someone actually wrote this...

Post by _Seven »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:Congratulations, but be careful. The CHI warns against a ring exchange appearing "to replicate any part of the marriage ceremony[.]"


I had mentioned doing a ring ceremony when planning my wedding (I thought it would be a missionary opportunity to share our beliefs on marriage) and was swiftly shot down by the TBMs on both sides who said it was frowned upon by the church. The CHI warning was mentioned by a few. I was kind of surprised to see some believers from MAD who are having ring ceremonies.

We were also sent a letter from the temple asking the bridal party to not have the groomsmen show up in tuxedos, no limos, or any of that traditional wedding stuff. I still had the bridesmaids wear their fancy dresses though.

I believe the church keeps this harmful policy in place so that members will continue to view civil marriage with disdain, thereby making temple marriage a superior goal for members to work toward. (remaining virgins being a big part of that) Most LDS girls I grew up with had their favorite temple on the wall and would try to push out thoughts of the beautiful weddings we would see in movies from our minds for the "upgraded" marriage. in my opinion, allowing civil marriage along with the temple sealing will cause members to fear that children will replace their wedding dreams/goals with the secular version and that the sealing will not be the primary focus. My own spouse had fears of diminishing the sacredness of the sealing from just planning a wedding reception and wanted it very low key.

I also wonder if LDS parents fear their children will be less likely to remain chaste without the expectation and superiority of a temple marriage.

Although changing the policy might take the temple marriage down a notch from it's high horse, I doubt it would cause anyone to NOT be sealed who otherwise would have.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_Seven
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Re: Someone actually wrote this...

Post by _Seven »

Scottie wrote:Seem like there is a bit more to this story.

I'm sure that everyone was all gung ho, ready to come and then suddenly EVERYONE changed their minds. Uh huh. Real life works that way, huh?

I liked one of the suggestions. Do a ring ceremony.

I'm not sure why more LDS couples don't do this. Have a civil wedding, then get sealed later. Everyone wins.


I used to like this idea but having attended several ring ceremonies, I would NEVER advise an LDS bride to use a Mormon leader in conducting the ritual. Every time I have been to one, the language was highly offensive…….. some implicitly degrading non temple marriage but most explicitly. It comes across as very pompous and arrogant to non members or even Mormons who are married to a non member when LDS give a lecture to the audience on how superior their covenants are in comparison to those who are only married until death. Those comments assume all the people who are not temple married do not value their vows and believe they will never see each other in the next life. That is a gross distortion of how non LDS view their marriages. “Til death do you part” only means that they are free to marry again after the spouse dies and not the way Mormons continue to misinterpret the vow. All the non LDS couples I know who are a believer on some level, fully expect to see and be with their loved ones in heaven. Ultimately the only distinction between a temple marriage and non temple, is a belief in sex with your spouse (or spouses) in the afterlife.


I would also warn LDS brides who choose a civil wedding to never use an LDS member unless you have control over the wording of the ceremony. My sister used our Stake President when she married a non member and it was the most uncomfortable downer of a wedding I have ever been to. It felt like he was chastising them the whole ceremony. He kept stressing how this wedding was only for time and will not be valid in the hereafter until she makes the right decision for a Celestial marriage. It was very inappropriate language, especially considering that the grooms entire family had been married outside of the LDS temple. In some ways it felt like we were at a funeral. My TBM side was very disappointed at her choice and my mother felt like a failure so for them it was a sad day.

One of the most offensive modern day talks that stayed with me was by Elder Nelson
on temple marriage. I cringed for all the part member families out there when he compared non temple marriages to shopping on the clearance rack.
I wasn’t alone in my feelings.


Here’s a few of the most offensive quotes that struck me:

The importance of choice may be illustrated by a homespun concept that came to mind one day when I was shopping in a large retail store. I call it “patterns of the shopper.” As shopping is part of our daily life, these patterns may be familiar.
Wise shoppers study their options thoroughly before they make a selection. They focus primarily on the quality and durability of a desired product. They want the very best. In contrast, some shoppers look for bargains, and others may splurge, only to learn later—much to their dismaythat their choice did not endure well. And sadly, there are those rare individuals who cast aside their personal integrity and steal what they want. We call them shoplifters.
The patterns of the shopper may be applied to the topic of marriage. A couple in love can choose a marriage of the highest quality or a lesser type that will not endure. Or they can choose neither and brazenly steal what they want as “marital shoplifters.”




This is a silly analogy. As a bargain shopper I get the same quality name brands on the clearance rack for more than half the price. Wait…….I guess it does make sense in the context that members have to pay tithing to enter the temple. ;)



On occasion, I read in a newspaper obituary of an expectation that a recent death has reunited that person with a deceased spouse, when, in fact, they did not choose the eternal option. Instead, they opted for a marriage that was valid only as long as they both should live. Heavenly Father had offered them a supernal gift, but they refused it. And in rejecting the gift, they rejected the Giver of the gift.


As with the patterns of the shopper, we may choose celestial marriage or lesser alternatives. Some marital options are cheap, some are costly, and some are cunningly crafted by the adversary. Beware of his options; they always breed misery!

The best choice is a celestial marriage. Thankfully, if a lesser choice has previously been made, a choice can now be made to upgrade it to the best choice. That requires a mighty change of heart and a permanent personal upgrade. Blessings so derived are worth all efforts made.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_Morrissey
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Re: Someone actually wrote this...

Post by _Morrissey »

bcspace wrote:
I'm not sure why more LDS couples don't do this. Have a civil wedding, then get sealed later. Everyone wins.


That places temple marriage in a secondary position which is contrary to what the Church is all about. However, what my daughter is doing this week is getting sealed in morning and walking down the isle (no bishop, no preacher, but repleat with all the attendants) later in the afternoon after the luncheon to exchange rings.


No, that reduces the Church's ability to use temple marriage as a means of control, which is contrary to what the Church is all about.
_The Nehor
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Re: Someone actually wrote this...

Post by _The Nehor »

CONFORM! COMPLY! OBEY!!!!!!!!!!
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Morrissey
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Re: Someone actually wrote this...

Post by _Morrissey »

cinepro wrote:
I'm getting married in two weeks. I've never had any "persecution" for being a member, until now. All of my extended family are refusing to come because they can't enter the temple. And it's not even like they're sad about it - they just don't seem to care. My grandma originally said she'd be thrilled to come, but she wrote me an email last night saying that she'd changed her mind because she can't see the ceremony.

I'm very hurt. I thought I was close with my extended family, but their actions speak otherwise. I tried posting my feelings to a wedding community I'm a part of, and everyone pretty much said "serves you right, I don't blame them," which just made me feel worse.


Huh?


It never ceases to amaze me how f***ing clueless people are sometimes.

You mean it would never occur to this guy, or other believing Mormons, that others just might be offended at being told they're not welcome to the wedding?

I can guarantee you all that if the shoe were on the other foot, many a believing Mormon would experience a distinct change of heart.
_harmony
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Re: Someone actually wrote this...

Post by _harmony »

A few comments:

1. I was at the sealing of one of my sons and his newly endowed wife yesterday. They were married 4 years ago in my mother's beautiful yard with roses blooming and the grass freshly mowed. The bride's countenance was filled with light, her hair and make up perfect, her dress gorgeous. She looked and felt beautiful. The whole family attended, even some of her family came. Members of the ward and surrounding friends came. The ceremony was conducted by the stake president, a wonderful man who gave them great advice said with the loving tone of a man who has known my son since his birth. In contrast, the ceremony yesterday was quite sparse, done by a stranger who didn't know them and didn't care that he didn't know them, and attended only by a handful of people. Her hair was pulled back into a ponytail, the veil kept slipping sideways, and she was in a rented dress and temple clothes. And the ceremony itself was quite disappointing. She was called by her maiden name, as if they had not been married for years. What a slap! There was no acknowledgement of their marriage for a number of years, no making the sealing a thing of beauty of its own. It felt like a rote recitation of what was on the handout, with little inflection and no spirit. A disappointment, for sure.

2. This comment is very telling, I think:
Moksha wrote:Church leaders must be aware that a converts family is most likely non-mormon.
I think Moksha is correct. This policy is a manifestation of just how much the church values converts, ie, not much. Any chance to rub a convert's nose in their lack of LDS history is not to be passed up.

3. I've heard that the policy is in place (to disbar non endowed people from the ceremony) because the groom takes the bride in the patriarchal grip. Never having been to just a sealing before, I was surprised when the sealer didn't tell them to do that. He didn't appear to even notice when they just did it. Anyone watching who didn't know it was a special hand position would have just thought they were just holding hands. Also, kneeling appears to be optional. The cushions slide out, so a chair can be placed close enough to the altar for the ceremony to take place. So unless there is something else, the whole hand thing appears to be not the reason.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Thama
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Re: Someone actually wrote this...

Post by _Thama »

Seven wrote:
I would also warn LDS brides who choose a civil wedding to never use an LDS member unless you have control over the wording of the ceremony. My sister used our Stake President when she married a non member and it was the most uncomfortable downer of a wedding I have ever been to. It felt like he was chastising them the whole ceremony. He kept stressing how this wedding was only for time and will not be valid in the hereafter until she makes the right decision for a Celestial marriage. It was very inappropriate language, especially considering that the grooms entire family had been married outside of the LDS temple. In some ways it felt like we were at a funeral. My TBM side was very disappointed at her choice and my mother felt like a failure so for them it was a sad day.


Interesting story. I'm getting married in less than a month to a never-mo (I'm still on the records but inactive and completely apostate). We're using the Stake President of my parent's ward, as he's someone I and my family know well. He's promised not to make the ceremony any sort of a missionary opportunity, but I'll have to make sure I read ahead of time exactly what he will be saying during the ceremony.
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" Nothing beside remains.
_The Dude
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Re: Someone actually wrote this...

Post by _The Dude »

Thama wrote:Interesting story. I'm getting married in less than a month to a never-mo (I'm still on the records but inactive and completely apostate). We're using the Stake President of my parent's ward, as he's someone I and my family know well. He's promised not to make the ceremony any sort of a missionary opportunity, but I'll have to make sure I read ahead of time exactly what he will be saying during the ceremony.


Congratulations Thama. Is your family still LDS and do they know about your loss of belief? Do you worry that they will speak up about your "lesser form" of marriage?

My brother got married outside the temple about a year ago, because his bride was newly baptized and so was not eligible for the temple. There was no bishop or Stake president officiating, but my father made the same kind of remarks as Seven mentioned, regarding the temporal limitations of their civil marriage and his hope that they would eventually go to the temple together. (UPDATE: they are now totally inactive).
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
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