My favorite cogdis of the Mormons.

[_Gadianton Plumber]

Can I get a straight answer? One thing has proved to be one of the most interesting contradictions found between Mormon doctrine and hard, clear science.

Adam and Eve.

I think it is clear that the Church has always taught that the creation story is meant to be interpreted in a relatively literal fashion. How many versions of the Adam/Eve nonsense do they have? 4? I lose count. In addition they continue teaching the story in all levels of CES. I think this point needs to be made, who did God make certain covenants with if A and E were figurative? What's the point of them if they were not the only humans? Can humanity collectively lose innocence? Did the rest of the race go extinct right after A and E got souls? It seems several VERY important parts of Mormonism is tied up in this conflict.

Adam and Eve are the first humans, parents of all flesh.

They existed in a state of innocence until they chose to choose (somehow).


Science has shown in a very convincing manner that humans evolved from animals. Worse yet, there is no "first man" since it would be impossible to draw a line between pre-human and human in evolutionary terms. So what do the apologists say about the pre-Adamites, the millions of human shaped critters that were born before 6000 BC?

The question is: WTF about them? How are Adam and Eve our first parents? We get all sorts of nonsense.

1. Science is lying (insert momentary embracing of post-modernism here).
2. Animals evolved. Humans were created.
3. Animals and humans evolved, but humans did not have souls until A and E.
4. We don't have to think about this, la la la la. (This includes such things as "does it really matter in regards to my faith in Christ" and Nibley's wonderful "I don't have to know who the early human were or what that mean, all I have to do is believe A and E are my parents.")

and my favorite

5. The Church has no official position. GA's even disagree on this one. http://en.fairmormon.org/Pre-Adamites

So, my apologist brethren, my apostate people, or bored folks, is this ignored for a reason?

[_Paul Osborne]

Science has shown in a very convincing manner that humans evolved from animals

Scientists can kiss my ass. I didn't come from a monkey. My father didn't come from a monkey, nor did his father. My ancestors were human all the way. So, you can take that "evolved" crap to hell were it was first taught -- by the devil himself to fool mankind here on earth.

Those who don't believe in Adam and Eve are monkey lovers.

Paul O

[_Gadianton Plumber]

Science has shown in a very convincing manner that humans evolved from animals

Scientists can kiss my ass. I didn't come from a monkey. My father didn't come from a monkey, nor did his father. My ancestors were human all the way. So, you can take that "evolved" crap to hell were it was first taught -- by the devil himself to fool mankind here on earth.

Those who don't believe in Adam and Eve are monkey lovers.

Paul O

Humans are APES people, not monkeys.

[_Paul Osborne]

I don't believe in carbon dating nonsense or stupid tree ring interpretations. I don't think scientists today know a damn thing about yesterday. They are like drunks in a bottle trying to figure simple things out. Guppies are smarter than scientists. Scientists are among the stupid people of the earth. They are monkey like.

Paul O

[_Gadianton Plumber]

I don't believe in carbon dating nonsense or stupid tree ring interpretations. I don't think scientists today know a damn thing about yesterday. They are like drunks in a bottle trying to figure simple things out. Guppies are smarter than scientists. Scientists are among the stupid people of the earth. They are monkey like.

Paul O

So you are a #1 kind of guy.

Scientists are stupid, all those drunks did was create every technology of the last good while. ;)

[_Paul Osborne]

Yeah, pretty much anyone who doesn't agree with me is probably wrong.



I do try to keep an open mind, believe it or not. But, I do believe in Adam and Eve. Gee wizz, I can't deny them anymore than I could deny the Christ.

Paul O

[_Gazelam]

Gad,

Interesting thread.

Question I have: If we came from apes, when do you believe the apes started using tools?

Do you have a date in mind? An era?

[_Sethbag]

Those who don't believe in Adam and Eve are monkey lovers.

I don't have a problem with that.

[_Sethbag]

There is plenty of information out there, probably a lot of it findable using Google, on the various species thought to be our direct ancestors, and such things as tool using and whatnot. If I'm not mistaken, simple tool use may have begun a million years ago or so (I don't recall offhand the exact current state of knowledge on the subject).

No modern primate species is our ancestor. That includes monkeys and apes. They are all our cousins. It doesn't take fossils to conclude this either - modern geneticists have seen the relationship in the lab as well.

The interrelatedness of humans with the great apes, and then a little further back with the monkeys, and further back with the rest of the mammals, and further back than that with the other types of animals, all the way back to the plants and the other non-animal eukaryotes, and then finally back to the bacteria and so forth, is seen in the degree of relatedness in the genetic code.

That evolution occurred is a fact. The "theory of evolution" is the body of ideas that seek to explain this evolution. This body is constantly being refined - but that evolution happened is a fact. It's not in dispute by anyone in possession of the facts, enough education to understand and interpret these facts, and a sound mind.

Going back to Adam and Eve, I think this is one of the slam-dunks that really discredits Mormonism (and probably quite a few other religions as well). The Mormon doctrine that no death existed in the world until Adam and Eve made their choices and fell is deeply engrained in the whole worldview of the church. It's woven into the explanation of the Plan of Salvation. Tearing this doctrine out and replacing it with suitable excuses would leave a big, gaping, bloody wound, and yet this is really the only option (other than loss of faith).

Additionally, this issue stands as a very clear indicator of the kind of credibility the Prophets, Seers, and Revelators of Mormonism have. They've taught this stuff for generations, and it's in the scriptures as the Word of the Creator of the Entire Universe. And they're all wrong. Their credibility is gravely injured by this.

Without the problems with "no death" vs. evolution, evolution vs. creation, and the Flood of Noah, I might still be a TBM today. They weren't the final nails in the coffin, but they were the first chinks in the armor of my faith.

[_solomarineris]

Gad,
Question I have: If we came from apes, when do you believe the apes started using tools?
Do you have a date in mind? An era?

Gaz,
Your sentence just about shows the magnitude of ignorance you exhibit about Human Evolution.
No Paleo Anthropologist would ever take you seriously if you start the question; "If we came from apes".
That is a slippery slope creationist ignorantly use.
Humanoids diverged, branched out from primate species up to five million years ago.
Humanoid fossil record is alot clearer than Creationists ignorantly boast that it isn't.
Take a look at this page;
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/hominids.html