MAD insults - for DCP's enlightenment

[_maklelan]

Have you ever been called a child molester? I have, on the MAD board.

I have on this board. I was also accused of having sex with my mission president, and about a dozen times of masturbating to a variety of things, including the Book of Mormon.

The offender didn't get so much as a temporary suspension.

Nor was the individual who accused me of all these things and more. It was explained to me that this place is better for not suspending people.

You get some pretty bad s*** on this board (much of which I think is undeserved, by the way), but I doubt that it gets much worse than being called a child molester.

Not much worse, but it was far more frequent here when I used to post more often.

[_maklelan]

Hello,

I am not so sure Dr. Peterson suffers fromdisproportionate insults or "attacks", as it were, in size or scope. I believe Mr. Rcrocket called someone a "faggot" in Italian, Mr. Nehor has wished for myself to die, Beastie is routinely berated in a vicious and vile manner, etc.. Even Dr. Peterson himself routinely insults people, most in a passive fashion. What I have noticed is that critics tend to try politeness at first, but only after repeated attacks on their character, intelligence, etc... Do they end up losing patience and respond likewise.

This seems to be how every individual perceives the comportment of their constituents.

Perhaps this is the only way Mormon apologetics can truly be conducted since the material they are defending is patently absurd to begin with.

We don't all have the luxury of simply knowing a priori that our antagonists can never be right. We must deal with the facts as they arise, not as we have decreed them.

[_JohnStuartMill]

Have you ever been called a child molester? I have, on the MAD board.

I have on this board. I was also accused of having sex with my mission president, and about a dozen times of masturbating to a variety of things, including the Book of Mormon.

I don't think any of those are nearly as bad as being accused of being a child molester, but I have no problem controlling for our different moral views in this context.

The offender didn't get so much as a temporary suspension.

Nor was the individual who accused me of all these things and more. It was explained to me that this place is better for not suspending people.

Well, to be fair, I don't think you'd get suspended if you called somebody a child molester on this board, so there's no double-standard here. On the other hand, if I had called Pahoran a pederast on the other board, as he did to me (and he didn't just insinuate it), I would have been immediately banned. The double-standard on the MAD board is undeniable, mak.

You get some pretty bad s*** on this board (much of which I think is undeserved, by the way), but I doubt that it gets much worse than being called a child molester.

Not much worse, but it was far more frequent here when I used to post more often.

It definitely goes both ways here, true.

[_maklelan]

I don't think any of those are nearly as bad as being accused of being a child molester, but I have no problem controlling for our different moral views in this context.

I agree.

Well, to be fair, I don't think you'd get suspended if you called somebody a child molester on this board, so there's no double-standard here. On the other hand, if I had called Pahoran a pederast on the other board, as he did to me (and he didn't just insinuate it), I would have been immediately banned. The double-standard on the MAD board is undeniable, mak.

Well, it is explicit in their board rules.

It definitely goes both ways here, true.

I think tight control serves Latter-day Saints and looser control serves the critics, but whoever is in charge of each board is going to give their constituency the benefit of the doubt. If you go to CARM the Evangelicals can get away with the most abominable and offensive accusations, but Mormons get banned for linking to LDS websites or for claiming an Evangelical is being dishonest (one person actually asserted that Evangelical Christians were incapable of lying, and so anyone accusing an Evangelical Christian of lying must apologize for lying). When someone told me I needed to die I stated the following:

Are you really telling me I need to die? I think I need to report this.

I reported it to the moderators and then I received a warning for harassing the other poster.

[_beastie]

I reported it to the moderators and then I received a warning for harassing the other poster.

This is the reason I never complain to the mods at MAD, despite having good reason to do so.

When I first began participating on MAD (then FAIR), one very well-known poster harassed me repeatedly - flat out called me a liar several times, and blatantly ignored the "asked and answered" policy. After this occurred repeatedly, I finally reported the behavior to the mods. Not only was no action taken against the poster, other than editing "liar" out of her posts, but I was banned for three months. Then another poster who spoke out in my defense was banned for three months as well.

Look, I understand the reasons for the grossly unfair MAD moderating policy. I accept that the mods believe they need to moderate in this fashion in order to encourage LDS to participate. But despite DCP's protests otherwise, I think that the insults critics endure at MAD can be just as severe and repetitive as what he receives here. Of course, there are specific words that wouldn't be allowed at MAD that would be allowed here, but focusing solely on those words is shallow.

After my experience, and the experiences of other critics, I think that believers who insist this place is far worse in regards to insults and name-calling are just being selective in their attention.

[_gramps]

MADness.

I don't care really about their moderation style. You pretty much know going in how they are going to treat a critic.

What actually did surprise me, and what ticks me off, is that they actually go and edit out portions of posts to protect their ass and to make the critic look bad.

And I have never heard one Mormon mention any disapproval of such despicable behavior, even when it was staring them in the face and couldn't be denied or washed away as lies from an evil apostate. I thought when they did it to me, it was some rare moment, in order to protect their asses. But, it seems, this is status quo after reading from other posters. Why in the hell would a Mormon put up with such behavior?

I lost all respect for the moderators on the MADness board long ago. But, never hearing one Mormon complain about such egregious behavior, makes me lose respect for a lot more of those who support that board.

Really, how does a moderator partake of the sacrament after wiping away someone's words like that? I would scream bloody murder if that happened here. I would also be gone. Simply unbelievable for me.

Oh well.

[_JohnStuartMill]

Well, to be fair, I don't think you'd get suspended if you called somebody a child molester on this board, so there's no double-standard here. On the other hand, if I had called Pahoran a pederast on the other board, as he did to me (and he didn't just insinuate it), I would have been immediately banned. The double-standard on the MAD board is undeniable, mak.

Well, it is explicit in their board rules.

If CARM had an explicit board rule saying that Mormons would be treated worse than Evangelicals, would that make it right?

It definitely goes both ways here, true.

I think tight control serves Latter-day Saints and looser control serves the critics

This is an interesting admission. It seems like a nicer way of saying what critics have already alleged: that the Mormons need an unlevel playing field in order to perform well.

Also, keep in mind that the only "tight control" on the other board is that applied to critics. There is no analogous control for believers on MAD.

but whoever is in charge of each board is going to give their constituency the benefit of the doubt. If you go to CARM the Evangelicals can get away with the most abominable and offensive accusations, but Mormons get banned for linking to LDS websites or for claiming an Evangelical is being dishonest (one person actually asserted that Evangelical Christians were incapable of lying, and so anyone accusing an Evangelical Christian of lying must apologize for lying). When someone told me I needed to die I stated the following:

Are you really telling me I need to die? I think I need to report this.

I reported it to the moderators and then I received a warning for harassing the other poster.

I hope you didn't think that I'd rush to the defense of some braindead evangelicals.

[_maklelan]

If CARM had an explicit board rule saying that Mormons would be treated worse than Evangelicals, would that make it right?

They do have words to that effect in their rules, and that doesn't make them the best circumstances (I think the situation is complex enough with governing a message board that it's hard to call it either "right" or "wrong"), but it does mean no one should be surprised or shocked when it happens.

This is an interesting admission. It seems like a nicer way of saying what critics have already alleged: that the Mormons need an unlevel playing field in order to perform well.

I don't think it has to do with performance so much as offense. It serves many critics because they can be more abusive and their attitudes can drive off sincere and intelligent posters. Tighter control keeps offensive material away, and may censor certain topics, not because they're impossible to defend, but because they're sensitive. None of the rules on MADB preclude the critics making a solid argument.

Also, keep in mind that the only "tight control" on the other board is that applied to critics. There is no analogous control for believers on MAD.

On some issues no, but the control is equal on others.

I hope you didn't think that I'd rush to the defense of some braindead evangelicals.

[/quote]

I'd prefer to call them misguided. And no, I don't bring up the example to undermine your thesis, but to show you all the boards favor their constituency, not just MADB.

[_JohnStuartMill]

If CARM had an explicit board rule saying that Mormons would be treated worse than Evangelicals, would that make it right?

They do have words to that effect in their rules, and that doesn't make them the best circumstances (I think the situation is complex enough with governing a message board that it's hard to call it either "right" or "wrong"), but it does mean no one should be surprised or shocked when it happens.

I'm neither surprised or shocked at MAD's double-standard.

This is an interesting admission. It seems like a nicer way of saying what critics have already alleged: that the Mormons need an unlevel playing field in order to perform well.

I don't think it has to do with performance so much as offense. It serves many critics because they can be more abusive and their attitudes can drive off sincere and intelligent posters. Tighter control keeps offensive material away, and may censor certain topics, not because they're impossible to defend, but because they're sensitive. None of the rules on MADB preclude the critics making a solid argument.

The MAD rules don't preclude solid criticism per se, true, but they do make it much more difficult to give it. The allowance of Pahoran to continually bait critics into stooping to his level, at which point they are banned, is an unnecessary hazard for people who want to make substantive criticisms. How many "sincere and intelligent posters" have been driven from MAD because of Pahoran and selek, I wonder? You act as if that number is not higher than zero.

The double-standard also makes it very easy for mods to shut down topics that are damaging to the apologists' side. I remember making a pretty calm thread (just because I'm as pugilistic on this board as the Mormons here doesn't mean I don't know civility when I see it) about the problems Brigham Young's racist comments pose to people who believe that prophets shouldn't be questioned on doctrinal matters, and being shut down for "intemperate rhetoric" or something.

Also, keep in mind that the only "tight control" on the other board is that applied to critics. There is no analogous control for believers on MAD.

On some issues no, but the control is equal on others.

Okay, whatever. The point is that MAD is not some troll-free paradise, and that the critics just can't hack it there. MAD still has trolls; the only difference between here and there is that MAD's trolls all slant one way.

I hope you didn't think that I'd rush to the defense of some braindead evangelicals.

I'd prefer to call them misguided. And no, I don't bring up the example to undermine your thesis, but to show you all the boards favor their constituency, not just MADB.[/quote] Again, the fact that other boards favor their constituencies doesn't absolve MAD of its own double standard. The fact remains that MAD is precisely analogous to CARM, with Mormons playing the role of Evangelicals, and critics playing the role of CARMS's Mormons. This is why MADite criticism of CARM is so awkward.

[_maklelan]

I'm neither surprised or shocked at MAD's double-standard.

I'll tell you what. Every time I see something at MAD that I think is over the line fro man LDS person I'll let them know I think we should raise the level of our discourse and I don't think the behavior is appropriate. I can't talk you out of thinking MADB is doing something wrong, but I can try to ameliorate the situation.

The MAD rules don't preclude solid criticism per se, true, but they do make it much more difficult to give it. The allowance of Pahoran to continually bait critics into stooping to his level, at which point they are banned, is an unnecessary hazard for people who want to make substantive criticisms. How many "sincere and intelligent posters" have been driven from MAD because of Pahoran and selek, I wonder? You act as if that number is not higher than zero.

I'm aware it's not zero, but I think it's lower than the number driven away from here. Mercury's behavior alone probably accounts for as many people as have ever been driven away from MADB.

The double-standard also makes it very easy for mods to shut down topics that are damaging to the apologists' side. I remember making a pretty calm thread (just because I'm as pugilistic on this board as the Mormons here doesn't mean I don't know civility when I see it) about the problems Brigham Young's racist comments pose to people who believe that prophets shouldn't be questioned on doctrinal matters, and being shut down for "intemperate rhetoric" or something.

I've seen that once or twice, too. To be fair, I think the potential for escalation to real trouble has been a contributing factor in at least one instance I can think of.

Okay, whatever. The point is that MAD is not some troll-free paradise, and that the critics just can't hack it there. MAD still has trolls; the only difference between here and there is that MAD's trolls all slant one way.

Granted, but trolls don't bother me as much as the bating and the abuse.

Again, the fact that other boards favor their constituencies doesn't absolve MAD of its own double standard. The fact remains that MAD is precisely analogous to CARM, with Mormons playing the role of Evangelicals, and critics playing the role of CARMS's Mormons. This is why MADite criticism of CARM is so awkward.

I don't agree that the double standards are analogous. At CARM no one is allowed to interfere with "witnessing" from Evangelicals in any way. No one is allowed to link to any LDS-affiliated website at all. No one is allowed to promote "non-Christian" doctrine. No one is allowed to accuse an Evangelical of being dishonest, whether tacitly or openly. MADB has its issues, but it's far from CARM.