NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

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_Daniel2
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Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _Daniel2 »

Who Knows wrote:
Darin wrote:I find it odd that gender wouldn't be considered a "suspect" class


Perhaps because it fails test #1 (in my list above). Women aren't a 'minority'.


Doesn't whether or not someone is "a minority" depend on where you draw the lines?

After all... "a minority" is only as small as the boundaries one keeps.

In many professions, for example, women have historically been treated unfairly and would, indeed, represent "a minority"--not because of their abilities, but because of traditional social gender norms.

In some neighborhoods (i.e. The Castro in San Francisco) homosexuals would hardly count as "a minority."

Whether a "religion" is "a minority" or not would depend on the state one is in, as well.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure that one could count "a suspect class" as being based on "minority status," at all.... The fact that laws protect against discrimination based on "religious affiliation" (given that such has been deemed to be a "suspect class") protect the discrimination against THE MAJORITY religious affiliation in any given area as much as the protect the MINORITY religious group, too, no...?

Darin
Last edited by Guest on Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Have compassion for everyone you meet even if they don't want it. What seems conceit, bad manners, or cynicism is always a sign of things no ears have heard, no eyes have seen. You do not know what wars are going on down there where the spirit meets the bone."--Miller Williams
_asbestosman
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Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _asbestosman »

Brackite wrote:If Proposition 8 should go, then laws discriminating against women from being able to go topless should also go.

Only if they're in the 20's (or maybe 30's), and have a BMI in the healthy (not underweight or overweight) range.
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_Daniel2
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Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _Daniel2 »

Who Knows wrote:
Darin wrote:I find it odd that gender wouldn't be considered a "suspect" class


Perhaps because it fails test #1 (in my list above). Women aren't a 'minority'.


Hmmm... On further reading, Who Knows, I obviously was reacting the term "minority," rather than the more specific wording of "discrete and insular minority". When looking at the footnote from Wiki about the term "discrete and insular minority", it links to the following, which sheds further light and knowledge on the subject (I guess I'm learning, line upon line, here a little, there a little... ;) )

Carolene Products is best known for its "Footnote Four", which is considered to be "the most famous footnote in constitutional law." [2] The Court applied minimal scrutiny (rational basis review) to the economic regulation in this case, but proposed a new level of review for certain other types of cases.

Justice Stone suggested there were reasons to apply a more exacting standard of judicial review in other types of cases. Legislation aimed at discrete and insular minorities, who lack the normal protections of the political process, should be an exception to the presumption of constitutionality, and a heightened standard of judicial review should be applied. This idea has greatly influenced equal protection jurisprudence, and judicial review.


[edit] Text of Footnote Four
“ There may be narrower scope for operation of the presumption of constitutionality when legislation appears on its face to be within a specific prohibition of the Constitution, such as those of the first ten amendments, which are deemed equally specific when held to be embraced within the Fourteenth…


It is unnecessary to consider now whether legislation which restricts those political processes which can ordinarily be expected to bring about repeal of undesirable legislation, is to be subjected to more exacting judicial scrutiny under the general prohibitions of the Fourteenth Amendment than are most other types of legislation.

Nor need we inquire whether similar considerations enter into the review of statutes directed at particular religious … or national … or racial minorities …: whether prejudice against discrete and insular minorities may be a special condition, which tends seriously to curtail the operation of those political processes ordinarily to be relied upon to protect minorities, and which may call for a correspondingly more searching judicial inquiry.


Footnote Four introduced the idea of levels of judicial scrutiny. In keeping with the New Deal Revolution, Footnote Four established the rational basis test for economic legislation, an extremely low standard of judicial review. The "rational basis test" mandates that legislation (whether enacted by Congress or state legislatures) which deals with economic regulation must be rationally related to a legitimate state interest.

Therefore, Footnote Four outlines a higher level of judicial scrutiny for legislation that met certain conditions:

On its face violates a provision of the Constitution (facial challenge).
Attempts to distort or rig the political process.
Discriminates against minorities, particularly those who lack sufficient numbers or power to seek redress through the political process.
This higher level of scrutiny, now called "strict scrutiny", was first applied in Justice Black's opinion in Korematsu v. U.S. (1944).

Some argue that this "most famous footnote" was in fact written not by Justice Stone, but by his law clerk, Louis Lusky.[3] In fact, the cited work above (while quite useful on the origin and growth of the footnote) does not claim that the law clerk was the author, and implies the opposite through letters between the justices.

Depending on the Justice, it can be common practice for a law clerk to draft an initial version of the opinion. This was not, apparently, Justice Stone's practice.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_v._Caro ... tnote_Four


Darin
"Have compassion for everyone you meet even if they don't want it. What seems conceit, bad manners, or cynicism is always a sign of things no ears have heard, no eyes have seen. You do not know what wars are going on down there where the spirit meets the bone."--Miller Williams
_rcrocket

Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _rcrocket »

Darin wrote:I find it odd that gender wouldn't be considered a "suspect" class, and am glad if/that the paragraph I quoted was not up-to-date (it doesn't say when it was written). It makes much more sense that gender would be suspect. Just to clarify the issue, given the erroneous information on answers.com, could you share a link showing that gender has been successfully added to the "suspect" list?


"sexual classifications are properly treated as suspect", in Sail'er Inn, Inv. v. Kirby, 5 Cal.3d 1 (1971).

"gender discrimination is presumptively unconstitutional", in Hibbs v. Dept of Human Resources, 273 F.3d 844 (9th Cir. 2001).
_gramps
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Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _gramps »

asbestosman wrote:
Brackite wrote:If Proposition 8 should go, then laws discriminating against women from being able to go topless should also go.

Only if they're in the 20's (or maybe 30's), and have a BMI in the healthy (not underweight or overweight) range.


My mom, though now dead, at the age of 68, got a boob job (calling and election made sure type Mormon, to boot). She looked great, for 68. You wouldn't allow her to go topless? And she had a healthy BMI, as well.

So discriminating, asbestosman!
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Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _Droopy »

I knew you'd eventually find your way to greener pastures Darin.
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_Brackite
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Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _Brackite »

JohnStuartMill wrote:Look, if you conservatives want to make the gay marriage thing hinge on whether homosexuality is an immutable characteristic, go for it.



I think that the issue of Gay Marriage is more of an Older Generation vs. Younger Generation issuue, instead of being an Conservative vs. Liberal issue. Most of the older Generation is against Gay Marriage, while most of the younger Generation supports Same Sex Marriage. RCrocket is Not a Conservative, Yet he is against Gay Marriage. A lot of People within California, Who Voted for Barack Obama for President, also Voted Yes on Proposition 8. And GOP Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger of California, Who Voted for John McCain for President, he also Voted No on Proposition 8.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Daniel2
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Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _Daniel2 »

Droopy wrote:I knew you'd eventually find your way to greener pastures Darin.


Thanks, Droop. The openness of this board IS a refreshing change. I don't anticipate that I will vanish, completely, from previous meadows, however. There's still many "lost sheep" wandering out there in the former wilderness, and that usually the reason I tarry behind, hoping to soften hearts and change minds. The world is a better place if at least a fw can muster up the stomach to withstand the occasional shiril voices of unreasonableness--wherever that may be found (here, there, or anywher).

It's good for my sanity to have found this refuge, though, too. :wink:

Darin
"Have compassion for everyone you meet even if they don't want it. What seems conceit, bad manners, or cynicism is always a sign of things no ears have heard, no eyes have seen. You do not know what wars are going on down there where the spirit meets the bone."--Miller Williams
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