Plaza Incident
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Re: Plaza Incident
It seems the participants of the thread have abandoned the notion that the two men involved in this incident were innocent victims. I'm satisfied with that, and I'm not going to continue participating in a rather meaningless semantic back and forth that accomplishes nothing.
If it is important to any of your egos to accuse me of tucking tail and running because I know I'm too stupid to hold my own, or because I'm an intellectual coward, don't let me get in your way. I know it's real important to at least one of you.
If it is important to any of your egos to accuse me of tucking tail and running because I know I'm too stupid to hold my own, or because I'm an intellectual coward, don't let me get in your way. I know it's real important to at least one of you.
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Re: Plaza Incident
Gadianton Plumber wrote:In my home country of Norway, gay marriage is not only legal, it is on equal legal footing with traditional marriage. That and a 50 to 75 percent atheism rate, open and honest attitudes about sex, naked bodies, and even drug use, have resulted in one of the highest standards of living in the world, higher than most regions of the United States.
And you actually want to insist causality here? You do know, don't you, that the vast, vast, vast majority of the political, economic, technological, and scientific advancements achieved by human beings since civilization began were achieved directly or indirectly via religious adherents? How far do you want to push this "causality" assumption? Also, 20% of the nations GDP comes directly from their oil, of which only Russia and Saudi Arabia export more. Natural resource make Norway wealthy, not atheism and gay marriage.
By the way, your numbers didn't sound accurate, so I looked them up. According to the most recent large survey, only 17% of Norwegians are identifiable as "atheists." About half are more on the "Spiritualist" side, and the rest believe in a personal deity. See the bottom line on page 9 here:
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/arch ... ort_en.pdf
Gadianton Plumber wrote:Now if only we can get rid of the socialism...
And now causality turns a deaf ear.
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Re: Plaza Incident
maklelan wrote:It seems the participants of the thread have abandoned the notion that the two men involved in this incident were innocent victims. I'm satisfied with that, and I'm not going to continue participating in a rather meaningless semantic back and forth that accomplishes nothing.
If it is important to any of your egos to accuse me of tucking tail and running because I know I'm too stupid to hold my own, or because I'm an intellectual coward, don't let me get in your way. I know it's real important to at least one of you.
Sir,
I do not think you are a coward. I do, however, believe you possess a typical Mormon posting habit of being pathologically incapable of admitting error. It would be much appreciated to see a staunch Mormon posting on this forum be to demonstrate a little humility.
Very Respectfully,
Doctor CamNC4Me
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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Re: Plaza Incident
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I do not think you are a coward. I do, however, believe you possess a typical Mormon posting habit of being pathologically incapable of admitting error. It would be much appreciated to see a staunch Mormon posting on this forum be to demonstrate a little humility.
Please pay better attention (Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:06 pm):
maklelan wrote:Some Schmo wrote:Who made the assertion that Mormons hate gays? I just asked if that's what you were saying (suspecting it wasn't - even though what you said earlier could be construed that way). There's no hypocrisy. You're jumping at shadows.
Your question came off as accusatory. If that was not intended then I apologize.
maklelan wrote:Some Schmo wrote:Um... I'm curious what you think my conclusions are, given that I haven't stated any conclusions about the incident. And I quite readily admit I know practically nothing about it.
I'll give you much of that. You were speaking generally about the conflict between Mormons and gays up until the last statement, and you appeared ready to suspend judgment. I apologize. I assumed too much in that instance.
maklelan wrote:Some Schmo wrote:I’m interested in how you got a hold of the police report. Please tell me you are not referring to the link to the article posted in this thread that only refers to the police report, or the little excerpts posted by Doctor CamNC4Me.
And those tidbits from the police report were posted in this thread after you made the statements that I quoted. Are you claiming you’d read the full report before making those statements?
The police report was released here:
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12838610
The PDF is here:
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/m ... report.pdf
In retrospect, I was a more curt than I needed to be with your post, and I apologize. I hope you can forgive me.
The reason I apologized to him is because I was actually wrong, but he also treated me like a human being despite the curtness of my initial responses. The ignorant and self-righteous indignation on this board is becoming sickening. If you'd quit worrying about my psychiatric health and start worrying about showing up for this debate you might be getting somewhere. Since that's not gonna happen, at least read my posts before you lecture me about humility.
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Re: Plaza Incident
maklelan wrote:
The reason I apologized to him is because I was actually wrong, but he also treated me like a human being despite the curtness of my initial responses. The ignorant and self-righteous indignation on this board is becoming sickening. If you'd quit worrying about my psychiatric health and start worrying about showing up for this debate you might be getting somewhere. Since that's not gonna happen, at least read my posts before you lecture me about humility.
Sir,
I will note, once again, that you possess a pathological inability to admit error. Your humility toward other posters is duly noted.
Very Respectfully,
Doctor CamNC4Me
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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Re: Plaza Incident
Well, that was the highest authority that the "Yes on 8" campaign cited, so I provisionally assume that that's the best they've got.maklelan wrote:Many disagree with your conclusion that there would be no adverse effects if Prop 8 had failed, and your lack of due diligence doesn't change the facts. Quite sound arguments have been logged by many competent law professors and lawyers (not just one single guy without a degree, as if that's really all that could be drudged up).
Please either provide the allegedly "sound arguments logged by many competent law professors and lawyers" for the claims of Prop. 8 supporters, or admit that the equivalence you've tried to draw here does not exist.
"You clearly haven't read [Dawkins'] book." -Kevin Graham, 11/04/09
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Re: Plaza Incident
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I will note, once again, that you possess a pathological inability to admit error. Your humility toward other posters is duly noted.
First, you equated the two in your original accusation. The above post is an equivocation, irrespective of whatever you make up to try to wriggle Scratch-like out of being wrong. You're trying to redefine your claim so you don't have to admit error, and that's reprehensible no matter who you are.
Second, I've apologized to other posters here infinitely more than anyone has apologized or admitted error to me (and I'm not exaggerating. Any quantity compared to 0 is infinite). Don't accuse me of an inability to admit error when you have to pull this crap to avoid admitting error.
Third, if me saying "I assumed too much," and "I was more curt than I needed to be," is not admitting error, please Dr., please tell me what I was admitting.
Fourth, you are trying very hard to make it known how far you feel you have to condescend to speak to me, and I find that quit irritating in light of the noted equivocation and refusal to admit error.
You're obviously also not capable of treating me like anything less than the scum under your shoe, despite your clear ethical inferiority, and I'm tired of trying to inject some objectivity into this thread.
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Re: Plaza Incident
Hello,
I suppose if we reference vague "authorities" and "lawyers" who support homosexual unions Mr. Maklelan would then be swayed?
Very Respectfully,
Doctor CamNC4Me
I suppose if we reference vague "authorities" and "lawyers" who support homosexual unions Mr. Maklelan would then be swayed?
Very Respectfully,
Doctor CamNC4Me
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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Re: Plaza Incident
maklelan wrote:
Or there's the more parsimonious answer that security personnel aren't really allowed to comment publicly about such incidents and the church was taking the time to interview people and make sure they had their facts straight. Of course, it's a lot more embarrassing for the church if one gets to assert that their statement came out now because it took them so long to come up with a believable story. Yeah, that's much more likely than a lie on the part of belligerent drunks who were intentionally being antagonistic.
I'm honestly shocked at the level of cognitive dissonance on this board, and especially from people so steeped in the recognition of it in others. Not a one of you can comment honestly or objectively about this situation, can you?
Oh swell, another Mopologist advocating the virtues of parsimony. Just curious, to what extent can you honestly say that you've applied this principle to, say, the PofGP, Book of Mormon, angels with flaming swords, anachronisms in Book of Mormon, etc., etc.?
I'm perfectly willing to concede that the events unfolded as described by the Church. I have absolutely no emotional investment in this case.
You will excuse me, however, if I retain a healthy amount of skepticism about Mormon Inc.'s devotion to the truth, particularly where it's interests are at stake.
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Re: Plaza Incident
maklelan wrote:Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I will note, once again, that you possess a pathological inability to admit error. Your humility toward other posters is duly noted.
First, you equated the two in your original accusation. The above post is an equivocation, irrespective of whatever you make up to try to wriggle Scratch-like out of being wrong. You're trying to redefine your claim so you don't have to admit error, and that's reprehensible no matter who you are.
Second, I've apologized to other posters here infinitely more than anyone has apologized or admitted error to me (and I'm not exaggerating. Any quantity compared to 0 is infinite). Don't accuse me of an inability to admit error when you have to pull this crap to avoid admitting error.
Third, if me saying "I assumed too much," and "I was more curt than I needed to be," is not admitting error, please Dr., please tell me what I was admitting.
Fourth, you are trying very hard to make it known how far you feel you have to condescend to speak to me, and I find that quit irritating in light of the noted equivocation and refusal to admit error.
You're obviously also not capable of treating me like anything less than the scum under your shoe, despite your clear ethical inferiority, and I'm tired of trying to inject some objectivity into this thread.
Sir,
You claimed the Mormon church has not antagonized the homosexual community. You clearly did not understand what the word antagonize meant. When I showed you that, indeed, your church antagonized and continues to antagonize homosexuals you never admitted the error in your assertion. I simply want you to recognize that your church antagonizes homosexuals. That is all.
I find your histrionics a bit disconcerting, Mr. Maklelan.
Very Respectfully,
Doctor CamNC4Me
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.