Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

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_StructureCop
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Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _StructureCop »

First, a couple observations and then my question and hypothesis.

Observation 1 - Some critics tend to see a close relationship between Church leadership and apologetic organizations, specifically BYU-affiliated FARMS. Some have even proposed that FARMS is a surrogate for disseminating theories or defenses of LDS beliefs on behalf of the "institutional" Church but which the institutional Church doesn't necessarily want to take responsibility for.

Observation 2 - "Rank and file" membership seem largely unfamiliar with FARMS, its scholarship, or its status as an unofficial or official appendage of the Church.

Question: What is the net effect of FARMS-type apologetics, scholarship or research on the body of the Church at large or on official pronouncements or policies of Church leadership?

Hypothesis: The number of Church members who subscribe or follow FARMS research/publications remains relatively limited. Some theories originating with FARMS publications make their way into the mainstream and become receive an official or folk status as an accepted interpretation of Mormon beliefs, but the vast majority only gain popularity among apologetic circles. Some Church membership may even regard FARMS or apologists with suspicion because they propose alternative interpretations of traditional LDS narratives or doctrines.

Church leadership may occasionally take FARMS theories into consideration, but such considerations are rarely articulated in "official" pronouncements, manuals, or other publications. I think Church leadership appreciates FARMS scholars' work generally.

Obviously there are some here who are more connected to the apologetics and Church leadership communities who may be able to clear up some of this if I am mistaken.
The missing roll theory can go to hell. -- Paul Osborne

The evidence will never be compelling for either side of the argument in rational terms. -- John Clark
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

I think your take on the situation is pretty much accurate.
_RockSlider
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _RockSlider »

I would guess that’s its biggest value to the church is in retention. Someone researching/considering the church is never going to make it past the negative stuff and spend the time on the rebuttals/explanations.
The questioning member is the one that is going to be willing to spend the time reading the apologists information and be comforted by it.
_KimberlyAnn
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _KimberlyAnn »

StructureCop, for the most part I agree with your assessment of the effect of apologetics on church leadership and membership.

RockSlider, I must say that as a questioning member I was not comforted by the apologetic material I found on SHIELDS, or by what I read from FARMS. If I had been impressed or convinced by their arguments, I'd still be a Mormon. But I'm not.

KA
_RockSlider
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _RockSlider »

KimberlyAnn wrote:RockSlider, I must say that as a questioning member I was not comforted by the apologetic material I found on SHIELDS, or by what I read from FARMS. If I had been impressed or convinced by their arguments, I'd still be a Mormon. But I'm not.
KA


:razz: I never suggested it would be effective
_StructureCop
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _StructureCop »

KimberlyAnn wrote:StructureCop, for the most part I agree with your assessment of the effect of apologetics on church leadership and membership.

Gracias.
RockSlider, I must say that as a questioning member I was not comforted by the apologetic material I found on SHIELDS, or by what I read from FARMS. If I had been impressed or convinced by their arguments, I'd still be a Mormon. But I'm not.

I think that reading FARMS/FAIR/SHIELDS material may be one of the steps a questioning member takes on their way out. Of course, not every member who reads FARMS is on the path out of the Church and not every one who leaves the Church had an encounter with apologetic material. Stopping at FARMS may be a symptom of more thoughtful belief, and being too thoughtful can often carry someone right out the doors. :razz:
The missing roll theory can go to hell. -- Paul Osborne

The evidence will never be compelling for either side of the argument in rational terms. -- John Clark
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

KimberlyAnn wrote:I must say that as a questioning member I was not comforted by the apologetic material I found on SHIELDS, or by what I read from FARMS. If I had been impressed or convinced by their arguments, I'd still be a Mormon. But I'm not.

Could you be specific? Particularly about the FARMS stuff that didn't impress you? What did you read?
_Morrissey
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _Morrissey »

StructureCop wrote:First, a couple observations and then my question and hypothesis.

Observation 1 - Some critics tend to see a close relationship between Church leadership and apologetic organizations, specifically BYU-affiliated FARMS. Some have even proposed that FARMS is a surrogate for disseminating theories or defenses of LDS beliefs on behalf of the "institutional" Church but which the institutional Church doesn't necessarily want to take responsibility for.

Observation 2 - "Rank and file" membership seem largely unfamiliar with FARMS, its scholarship, or its status as an unofficial or official appendage of the Church.

Question: What is the net effect of FARMS-type apologetics, scholarship or research on the body of the Church at large or on official pronouncements or policies of Church leadership?

Hypothesis: The number of Church members who subscribe or follow FARMS research/publications remains relatively limited. Some theories originating with FARMS publications make their way into the mainstream and become receive an official or folk status as an accepted interpretation of Mormon beliefs, but the vast majority only gain popularity among apologetic circles. Some Church membership may even regard FARMS or apologists with suspicion because they propose alternative interpretations of traditional LDS narratives or doctrines.

Church leadership may occasionally take FARMS theories into consideration, but such considerations are rarely articulated in "official" pronouncements, manuals, or other publications. I think Church leadership appreciates FARMS scholars' work generally.

Obviously there are some here who are more connected to the apologetics and Church leadership communities who may be able to clear up some of this if I am mistaken.


I too agree with your assessment, including the cited observations.
_Sethbag
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _Sethbag »

KimberlyAnn wrote:StructureCop, for the most part I agree with your assessment of the effect of apologetics on church leadership and membership.

RockSlider, I must say that as a questioning member I was not comforted by the apologetic material I found on SHIELDS, or by what I read from FARMS. If I had been impressed or convinced by their arguments, I'd still be a Mormon. But I'm not.

KA


It doesn't need to be 100% effective to do its job. It only needs to be more effective than not doing the apologetics is. If they can "save" 50% of the questioners from leaving the church, that's a better result for them than if, say, 75% of the questioners ended up leaving.

I'm one of the ones for whom the FARMSesque defenses didn't work. They just made it more obvious to me that we as Mormons do what every other religious believer does, and use our intellectual faculties to find ways to keep believing stuff that doesn't deserve otherwise to be believed. For people unwilling to recognize that about themselves, I'm sure it's much more effective.

Anyhow, back to the OP, I still note that the church manuals teach the global, literal Flood of Noah, the "no death before the Fall" doctrine and the Adam and Eve as first flesh, mother of all living, etc. sorts of things. Clearly the leadership haven't 100% bought into the apologetic arguments and adopted them.

Anyhow, if the leadership of the church bought 100% into the apologetic arguments, the membership would follow, and there would not be such a thing as the whole Internet vs. Chapel Mormon thing. Clearly that hasn't happened yet.
Last edited by Anonymous on Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Morrissey
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _Morrissey »

StructureCop wrote:
KimberlyAnn wrote:StructureCop, for the most part I agree with your assessment of the effect of apologetics on church leadership and membership.

Gracias.
RockSlider, I must say that as a questioning member I was not comforted by the apologetic material I found on SHIELDS, or by what I read from FARMS. If I had been impressed or convinced by their arguments, I'd still be a Mormon. But I'm not.

I think that reading FARMS/FAIR/SHIELDS material may be one of the steps a questioning member takes on their way out. Of course, not every member who reads FARMS is on the path out of the Church and not every one who leaves the Church had an encounter with apologetic material. Stopping at FARMS may be a symptom of more thoughtful belief, and being too thoughtful can often carry someone right out the doors. :razz:


For my part, I never really read FARMS materials or any other apologetics on my way out the door. I only did that after-the-fact. My issues were much more basic in that once I determined to honestly assess my own beliefs (thereby applying the same standards of evidence I demanded of others), none of it (and I mean NONE of it) made any sense from an even remotely objective perspective. That includes not only Mormonism but religion and belief in God in general.
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