Health Care Debate

[_Kevin Graham]

Rush Limbaugh is a friggin liar and a moron. I watched him on Greta Van Sustren the other night as he tried to twist Obama's health reform into a socialist agenda. Every example Obama presented, Rush would say he was flat out lying. For example, Obama said something about how some doctors will do tests, not because they are needed, but because they can charge more. This is a fact.

But Rush went ape-shit and said that the reason they do more tests was to protect themselves from malpractice lawsuits.

WTF?

On his radio show he goes on and on about how Obama is attacking a nobel profession and is trying to paint this image that doctors never do anything wrong, and that even though they get paid outrageous sums of money, they really aren't interested in making a buck. Its all about helping patients, not about money for them. HA!

Limbaugh s full of crap.

Here are just a couple of stories from a doctor in the field, Dr. Behzad Mohit:

A close family member of mine had a lower back pain shooting to the side of her thigh. A neurologist, together with a neuroradiologist, took X-rays, etc., and recommended spinal fusion (an expensive operation that would lay her up in bed for some time). A friend gave her the name of a therapeutic massage therapist who diagnosed a spasm of a muscle in her buttock. After two massage treatments (cost: $200) she was relieved and has been free of pain for the last 15 years.

Case two. A middle-aged woman came to my dermatology office (she had full insurance coverage) with a wart the size of a pea on her third finger asking for treatment. I asked her if it had been treated before. She said, "Yes, doctor. I have been going to Dr. X for eight months. Every two weeks he freezes the top and shaves it, but the wart is still here." I froze the wart with liquid nitrogen deeply and in two weeks it was gone (cost: $75. The previous doctor's cost: $1,200). Dr. X was so busy with repeat visits that he could not accept a new patient for at least three months.

This coincides with my own personal experiences with the "for profit" healthcare system of America.

When I was on my mission I had headaches and was passing out. The Church sent me back to California and I was taken to a cardiologist who rigged me with a 24 hour EKG recorder. The doctor was rather dry, never made any eye contact, but he was recommended by one of the elderly couples working at the Anaheim Mission office. Anyway, after reviewing the recording the doctor informed me that he would need to put a pacemaker in me... at age 20! When the Church insurance said they wouldn't cover it because my heart "murmur" was a preexisting conditon, the doctor managed to get the phone numbers of various family members, from someone at the mission office. He then began calling my mother in Atlanta, my father in Florida, and even my grandparents, asking for credit card numbers. He assured them that my life depended on their financial support.

I wanted a second opinon, and the doctor gave me three names to go see. As if I was going to go find out whether his good friends were going to negate his diagnosis. So I begged the Mission office to allow me to go see another doctor who wasn't affiliated with this cardiologist. When I went to anotehr doctor, I was informed that I didn't need a pacemaker, and that the idea of putting one in me at my age was borderline idiotic.

And yet I came so close to having it done.

This could only happen in a "for profit" healthcare system and Rush Limbaugh and the other alarmists out there want us to believe none of these stories are true.

Later that month I told my story to a nurse in the ward who was familiar with that doctor's name, and she informed me that he was one of many doctors at that hospital who had a record of giving highly questionable diagnoses to patients, and using scare tactics to get them to comply with his desire to perform needless operations. Oh, but Irvine Hospital was "the best healthcare" one could ask for on this planet.

She also said something like, the medical profession has the highest rate of bankruptcies than any other field, because they make so much money they get into more debt prior to making it, and they rely on these kinds of operations to bail them out of their financial woes.

My next experience with American health care would come many years later. About 8 years later I suppose. I had pinched a nerve behind my knee. I knew I pinched it. I recall when it happened. The result was numbness on the front of my chin just above my foot, and whever I walked I dragged my foot because I couldn't control the muscle that was responsible for lifting it while walking. Anyway I went to a family doctor that my family in Orlando had been seeing for decades. I never saw the doctor, but instead a nurse. She did her little test in the room for about 5 minutes and then informed me that I might very well be experiencing the early stages of MS (Multiple Sclerosis), which normally would have scared me to death had I not already known about the pinched nerve. What boggled my mind was the fact that I told this woman about the pinched nerve, but she would have none of it. She insisted this could be MS and said I need to schedule a time to have more tests performed. She told me these tests would be "extremely expensive" and then started asking what kind of insurance coverage I had.

Unbelievable. I ended up massaging my own leg with some lotion every night for a week and the numbness eventually went away.

A third incident involved an accident at work. I got knocked on the head pretty hard by a falling object and my employer called an ambulance just as a precautionary measure. The ride to the hospital was superfluous and about three miles. Shortly afterwards I moved out of state, but would later discover that my former residence had been receiving bills from the hospital, including an $1100 ambulance ride. The sent all of this to a collections agency and it took another year of squabbling over the phone before my credit was cleared and my former employer eventually paid it.

Four years ago while playing football in Brazil, I broke my kneecap. Brazil's health system is rated something like 96th in the world, so I was a bit nervous. I walked into a hospital that was open to the public, showed my passport, sat on a crummy concrete bench in agony for about two hours, and then went into the x-ray room. Three other doctors were called in to debate whether or not my fracture was significant enough to require surgery. It really was just a hairline fracture, and they decided that it didn't need surgery. And it didn't. The doctors informed me of the damage, and then I was sent to another wing where I waited about 45 minutes before having my leg placed in a cast.

After the cast was in place, I went to a consultation room where another doctor made a schedule for to to return every two weeks for further x-rays. Over the course of three months, my knee healed, and I was out of pockt a grand total of 0$. And thsi from a "third world" country?

What blows my mind even more is how expensive drugs are in the USA. If I get an infection in the USA I have to go to the doctor and get a prescription before buying antibiotics. The usual routine is to go to the doctor and pay around $100 without insurance ($10-30 with insurance) just so he/she can look in my throat and say, "Yep, it looks pretty red" and then write me a prescription for amoxicillan. Thay will cost me about $30-60 without insurance, and about $5-15 with insurance.

In Brasil, I walk in any pharmacy and get as much amoxicillan as I want without prescriptions. A pack of 30, 500 mg tablets is only 4 bucks! The same friggin brand that is sold in USA for more than TEN TIMES that amount!

[_bcspace]

I've not had the time to analyze the above statements yet and may not ever because I don't rely on Rush, Hannity, or the Obama administration for information, however:

Does anyone deny that the plan brings us closer to a single buyer (of health related services) and/or and single payer (of health related services)?

If not, then what should be recognized by anyone with even a modicum of economics education (of which JSM has nothing in abundance) is that a single buyer/payer (a monopoly) skews the supply and demand curve to such a great extent that prices become exorbitantly high and/or supply and availability becomes extremly low.

[_bcspace]

What blows my mind even more is how expensive drugs are in the USA.

That is in large part because the US subsidizes the rest of the world in this area. We pay for most of the research and development and sometimes, production. People in socialized systems around the world are taking advantage of this and don't pay for what's been done to even make medication available to them. The bearing of the cost is so skewed that it's not just new and experiemental drugs that are high priced; the worldwide cost also has to be made up here by raising the price of longtime and low cost to produce drugs as well.

So Kevin, when you think upon how how cheap your drugs are, think also about people like me, the American insurance buyer and taxpayer (because people on welfare and medicaid don't bear the cost, I do) and give me a little more thanks and Brazil a little less.

You're welcome!

Now consider what will happen to cost and availablity of drugs once the US becomes socialized too under the Obama plan and the follow on plans to come. With advent of the single payer/buyer, price controls will be in effect. Fewer doctors, less research and development, fewer hospitals, scarce drugs. Though until now you haven't realized it, you're actually part of the problem Kevin.

You freeloader you.....

[_Kevin Graham]

The reason they are expensive here is because, thanks to the Bush administration, drug companies can charge whatever the hell they want. You're not paying anything to make drugs in Brasil cheaper, what a load of BS! The system is rigged in America to make the insurance and drug companies richer, because, after all, they run the system and healthcare is viewed as a business, and business in corporate America has no conscience, it is geared to do one thing and one thing alone: maximize profits no matter what it takes.

[_Kevin Graham]

Does anyone deny that the plan brings us closer to a single buyer (of health related services) and/or and single payer (of health related services)?

For soemone who doesn't rely on Hannity or RUsh, you sure do have their talking points down pat.

The myth going around today is that with health insurance, all is well. Those loser freeloading libs don't want health insurance so they don't pay for it. It is their choice, and not the result of some deficiency in the American system. Is that about right?

The fact is some of the worst health care stories in America come from those who have tried to get their insurance companies to pay for coverage, and this is because health insurance companies have found ways to rig the system and avoid payment of claims, and the board of directors at many hospitals are in cahoots with these insurance companies, and are even given bonuses and incentives based on the dollar value of the health care they reject. It is a corrupt system, conflicts of interest left and right and nobody seems to realize it because they are too busy being duped by the professional lobbyists and the amatuers like Limbaugh and Hannity who don't know a damned thing about thsi health care system or the ones around the world.

At least with a goverment based system, it isn't for profit, and treatment won't be denied based on profitability. The reason drugs and insurance is so damn expensive to begin with has everything to do with the for profit system.

Nixon started this HMO business with Edward Kaiser of Kaiser Permanente, and it was all based on the philosophy of less care, higher profit, and the country has been suffering ever since.

[_bcspace]

The reason they are expensive here is because, thanks to the Bush administration, drug companies can charge whatever the hell they want. You're not paying anything to make drugs in Brasil cheaper, what a load of BS! The system is rigged in America to make the insurance and drug companies richer, because, after all, they run the system and healthcare is viewed as a business, and business in corporate America has no conscience, it is geared to do one thing and one thing alone: maximize profits no matter what it takes.

You're only partly correct and by the way, drug companies SHOULD be allowed to charge whatever "the hell" they want. It's the fact that they aren't allowed to do so that allows the price to spiral out of control.

There are laws on the books that require a particular drug company to allow the drugs it invents to be copied and produced after only a few years. So the price is super high in order to make up the cost in a short time. Invariably, the cost is never made up and gets shifted to other drugs and the next big discovery.

We know the free market works to moderate price, yet in this case, we don't have one.

[_bcspace]

For soemone who doesn't rely on Hannity or RUsh, you sure do have their talking points down pat.

You probably think that because, being conservative, they often inately recognize the truth but without knowing why.

The myth going around today is that with health insurance, all is well.

I've never heard that myth expressed. Health insurance is broken because people have forgot what insurance means. Instead of something being there to cover the rare high cost emergency, dibilitating disease, or accident, people have come to think of it as a catch all for all costs. Insurance madates therefore are another big problem.

For example, why should I have to pay for someone else's lifestyle choices? Overeating, smoking, drinking, std's, etc. I have 7 kids. Why would anyone else want to pay for MY lifestyle choice? Yet we do and insurance costs spiral out of control thereby.

The fact is some of the worst health care stories in America come from those who have tried to get their insurance companies to pay for coverage, and this is because health insurance companies have found ways to rig the system and avoid payment of claims, and the board of directors at many hospitals are in cahoots with these insurance companies, and are even given bonuses and incentives based on the dollar value of the health care they reject. It is a corrupt system, conflicts of interest left and right and nobody seems to realize it because they are too busy being duped by the professional lobbyists and the amatuers like Limbaugh and Hannity who don't know a damned thing about thsi health care system or the ones around the world.

The solution here is to allow insurance companies to charge whatever they want for everything AND allow the consumer to buy exactly what and how much. That is very much like it was back in the days when insurance worked.

At least with a goverment based system, it isn't for profit, and treatment won't be denied based on profitability. The reason drugs and insurance is so damn expensive to begin with has everything to do with the for profit system.

No, a single payer/buyer would make it worse. The reason why the profit system doesn't work now is because it's a hybrid of market and controls. Profits have to be made up because controls are supressing the system elsewhere. Only a pure market system, which we haven't had in a long time if ever, will solve the problem.

Nixon started this HMO business with Edward Kaiser of Kaiser Permanente, and it was all based on the philosophy of less care, higher profit, and the country has been suffering ever since.

Agreed. Price controls never work. That is what HMOs are based on and that is the model being proposed for the goverment program. The independent HMO's didn't work so now we are going to build one BIG one that NO ONE can escape. Pretty stupid huh?

[_Kevin Graham]

For example, why should I have to pay for someone else's lifestyle choices Overeating, smoking, drinking, std's, etc. I have 7 kids.

They do if your kids attend public school. Why are so many childless adults having to pay taxes to fund public schools so your seven children can get an education? I happen to think health is more important than education, but this is just one example of government services provided to only some, but paid by all.

Why would anyone else want to pay for MY lifestyle choice? Yet we do and insurance costs spiral out of control thereby.

Insurance rates spiral out of control because they are trying to make a profit, and they can't unless they raise their rates to keep up with the ever growing costs of healthcare.

The solution here is to allow insurance companies to charge whatever they want for everything AND allow the consumer to buy exactly what and how much.

That doesn't make any sense. You seem to think a competitive minded insurance company could just come along and charge less, without any concern for making a profit, thereby forcing others to be more competitive and drop their rates as well. The problem is that health care costs are so high, these companies have no choice but to keep high rates to stay in business. Any insurance worth having is going to cost someone around $13-20k a year for a family of four. That might not sound like much is you're making over 100k/year, but the average American makes less than half of that, and simply cannot afford it.

And even if they could, there is no real guarantee that your insurance company will cover all costs. Americans are continuously stressed out about getting sick. It is a huge factor in the number of bankruptcies. 22,000 people die every year because they cannot get health care. That's like having a 9-11 tragedy every seven weeks, except the country doesn't notice it because they don't want to.

No, a single payer/buyer would make it worse.

That isn't what Obama is proposing. A government option is what he is proposing.

The reason why the profit system doesn't work now is because it's a hybrid of market and controls. Profits have to be made up because controls are supressing the system elsewhere. Only a pure market system, which we haven't had in a long time if ever, will solve the problem.

There is no real reason to believe a free market system will solve the problem. It works for businesses, but you can't plug in the free market model to cure everything. The NYT published an article last week discussing the problems with a free market health care system.

[_Dr. Shades]

Thanks for sharing that, Kevin. I agree with everything you said.

It's funny how people--including myself at one time--are so up-in-arms about the concept(s) of "ObamaCare" and/or "socialized medicine," when in fact the system we have now is many times worse than either of those two concepts.

As it is now, we don't simply have bureaucracies, we have entire industries whose primary motive is to deny us health care in order to maximize their profits. HMOs, for-profit insurance companies, etc. who leech money from the system that would otherwise go toward providing actual health care.

[_JonasS]

Dr. X is a nugget.