Leaders no longer get a personal visit of Jesus?

[_harmony]

We strive for worthwhile discussion.

I’m sure that’s how you see it. But remember, I have followed this board on occasion. I think I know what goes on here. It’s more or less like the Foyer with the exception that the owners permit faithful LDS to defend themselves and the church. Still, I would bet that the ratio of believer to unbeliever is probably around 10 to 1.

Actually, closer to 1 in 4 or 5. However, at least here each side has several voices. On MAD and RfM, there is only one voice.

there's those of us who are active TR holding, calling holding, tithing paying members who stubbornly refuse to walk in lockstep with the rest of the church.

I think I have a pretty good idea of what kind of a Mormon you are.

You have no idea.

But you're not alone. And it's good to know where each of us stands. Perhaps Daniel won't feel so lonely, with only Mak, Whyme, William, Nehor, Crock, occasionally LoaP, and of course good ol' Droop to keep him company. Such fine company he finds himself in. Lord knows, often poor Daniel is all alone. He bears his burden well though.

[_StructureCop]

Your candidness just made you easily my favorite apologist.

Why thank you sir. I tend to lean towards the critical side more often, but may I have your permission to add this to my sig line?

[_StructureCop]

If this is the same “StructureCop” I have seen over the years on the FAIR/MAD board, he is anything but an apologist. Are you just being sarcastic?

Sorry, have we met?

[_DarkHelmet]

OK, here's the deal:

1 THE veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.

How could this account be any less sacred than one from any other self proclaimed prophet?

If the concept is so sacred, why does it yet remain in the D&C, eh?

On a side note, what was Jebus compensating for by showing up with more bling than Mr. T?

And how did Smith know it was pure gold? Did he bite it or break a peice off? Did Jebus say, "hey, this isn't the cheap crap. No plating here, man"

In the immortal words of Shania Twain, "..that don' impress me much".

How did they know that was Jesus visiting them? Their visitor never said "Hi, I'm Jesus." The physical description of their visitor does not match any description of Jesus I've read about.
Since when did he have white hair and flaming eyes? Since when did Jesus stand on pure gold and speak in a voice as loud as rushing waters?

Why would Joseph Smith assume this was Jesus and not some imposter trying to trick him?

[_Gazelam]

There have been numerous statements of being Christ's witness over the years. There is a very detailed description given by Lorenzo Snow of when Christ called on him to be the prophet. I believe it was right after his being in the Holy Of Holies begging the Lord to preserve the life of Wilford Woodruff so that he wouold not have to lead the church. Christ told him to call the twelve to gether and reorganize things. That can be found here: Lorenzo Snow sees Christ Its on page 85, or you can use the scroll on the left and click on "The Savior appeared to him in the Salt Lake Temple." Click on the page to enlarge it to readable size.

I know of an account given by Truman Madsen, it might be in his book regarding the Presidents of the Church, of President McCay's personal secratary testifying of an appearance. A new Apostle needed to be called, and Bro. McCay was stumped. he had a short list, but needed confirmation. He told his secratary that he was going to go to the Lord with the problem and would be back soon. A short time later he was called back to the office. He stated that Bro. McCays face shone like Moses when he came from the mount, and the president said that the Lord had told him who to call, and would he please get the number so that they could call him.

A similar story is told by Bro. McConkie in regards to his calling to be an Apostle. Harold B Lee called him to his office and informed him of his calling. He stated that he had approached the Lord with a list of possible candidates of who should be called. He said that he had argued with God in regards to McConkie being called, but the Lord had insisted. McConkies son asked him if it hurt his feelings that Bro. Lee had argued about the calling, and Bruce said "No, I would rather be called by the Savior to be an Apostle than by a Prophet anyway."

you can add to that his own testimony: "I am one of [Jesus Christ's] witnesses, and in a coming day I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and in his feet and shall wet his feet with my tears. But I shall not know any better then than I know now that he is God's Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way."


Boyd K Packer gave an entire talk on the subject of the brethren being witnesses of the Savior. That talk can be found here: Link
In it he states :

Occasionally during the past year I have been asked a question. Usually it comes as a curious, almost an idle, question about the qualifications to stand as a witness for Christ. The question they ask is, “Have you seen Him?”

That is a question that I have never asked of another. I have not asked that question of my brethren in the Quorum, thinking that it would be so sacred and so personal that one would have to have some special inspiration, indeed, some authorization, even to ask it.

There are some things just too sacred to discuss. We know that as it relates to the temples. In our temples, sacred ordinances are performed; sacred experiences are enjoyed. And yet we do not, because of the nature of them, discuss them outside those sacred walls.

It is not that they are secret, but they are sacred; not to be discussed, but to be harbored and to be protected and regarded with the deepest of reverence.

He ends the talk with this statement:

Now, I wonder with you why one such as I should be called to the holy apostleship. There are so many qualifications that I lack. There is so much in my effort to serve that is wanting. As I have pondered on it, I have come to only one single thing, one qualification in which there may be cause, and that is, I have that witness.

I declare to you that I know that Jesus is the Christ. I know that he lives. He was born in the meridian of time. He taught his gospel, was tried, was crucified. He rose on the third day. He was the first fruits of the resurrection. He has a body of flesh and bone. Of this I bear testimony. Of him I am a witness. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

[_Sethbag]

Other than the Lorenzo Snow one, I don't think any of those stories actually come out and say that the person testified that they'd seen the Lord. And who knows what to make of the Lorenzo Snow story?

In fact, Boyd K. Packer seems to be implying "don't ask!" when he says he thinks one would require almost an authorization straight from God even to ask someone if they'd seen him, and then says it's too sacred to even talk about anyway, and then in the end, he says he's a witness of God. So, as we've been saying, he's being coy about it. People like you will be inclined to believe that "I'm a witness of him" means he's seen him, but it really doesn't - people in the church "bear witness" all the time about things that they only think or believe, and haven't seen.

I'm really curious why God and Jesus coming down in a pillar of light to Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove is not too sacred to talk about. Heck, on my mission we told that one in the very first discussion, to total strangers of who knows what spiritual state. Is Jesus appearing to Boyd K. Packer, or David O. McKay, or Harold B. Lee, really that much more spiritual than Elohim and Jehova appearing to Joseph Smith?

Anyhow, as I recall, Harold B. Lee was one of the apostles who was a stumbling block in efforts in the 60s to find a consensus amongst the 12 to abolish the black priesthood ban. I have a hard time believing the bar can be so high amongst the membership that one has to be nigh unto absolute perfection even to dream of seeing Jesus, but an apostle can see him who harbors such blatantly racist thoughts and judgments of a whole race of fellow humans. A real question would be, are there stories of Delbert Stapley or Mark E. Peterson seeing Jesus? Maybe Peterson saw Jesus come down in a heavenly Cadillac, driven, of course, by a black guy.

[_RockSlider]

Gazelam,

Good list.

How about some examples say post 1990?

[_Gazelam]

Gazelam,

Good list.

How about some examples say post 1990?

I know I've heard Bro.Holland state that he is a witness, but I can't find the quote and I don't just want to say I heard it without a link or reference.

In regards to Blacks and the Priesthood, every prophet that dealt with the growing faith in Africa post WW2 went to the Lord and asked him if they could extend the priesthood to the Negro race and were told "not yet" by the Lord. When Kimball went to the Lord to plead with him he was told to first repent of his prejudices and then he was allowed to extend it. The burden and work of the priesthood was given to the Negro race when it was the proper time. Every prophet went to the Lord on the matter and was told no. don't cast aspersion where it is unwarrented.

[_Sethbag]

I'm not.

And blaming the putative Creator of the Entire Universe for the prejudice against blacks in the Mormon leadership hierarchy is really lame. Man up and take responsibility. "God did it!" may sound like a good enough answer about creation if you're scientifically illiterate, but using it to justify institutional racism isn't going to fly.

[_StructureCop]

In regards to Blacks and the Priesthood, every prophet that dealt with the growing faith in Africa post WW2 went to the Lord and asked him if they could extend the priesthood to the Negro race and were told "not yet" by the Lord. When Kimball went to the Lord to plead with him he was told to first repent of his prejudices and then he was allowed to extend it. The burden and work of the priesthood was given to the Negro race when it was the proper time. Every prophet went to the Lord on the matter and was told no. don't cast aspersion where it is unwarrented.

C-F'in-R.