The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

I'm happy to reveal myself as at least slightly less depraved than commonly thought here.

liz3564 wrote: You have to admit, though, Dan, that there is a dismissive attitude toward women that exists in apologetics.

Not in my circles. Not even slightly. So no, I don't have to admit that.

I'm not even sure where the allegation is coming from.

Who, among apologists, dismisses women? Jack Welch? Kent Brown? Hugh Nibley? John Clark? Bill Hamblin? John Gee? David Paulsen? Blake Ostler? Camille Williams? Shirley Ricks? Alison Coutts? Cynthia Hallen? JoAnn Seely?
_Yoda

Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _Yoda »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I'm happy to reveal myself as at least slightly less depraved than commonly thought here.

liz3564 wrote: You have to admit, though, Dan, that there is a dismissive attitude toward women that exists in apologetics.

Not in my circles. Not even slightly. So no, I don't have to admit that.

I'm not even sure where the allegation is coming from.

Who, among apologists, dismisses women? Jack Welch? Hugh Nibley? John Clark? Bill Hamblin? John Gee? David Paulsen? Blake Ostler? Camille Williams? Shirley Ricks? Alison Coutts?


I'm glad to hear it. I was referring to the amateur apologists of MAD.
_Calculus Crusader
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I'm talking about the part where the Witnesses go out of their way to stress the physicality and objective reality of their experience.

Richard Lloyd Anderson's "Attempts to Redefine the Experience of the Eight Witnesses," in Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 14/1 (2005): 18-31, is a nice place to start on this issue.

http://mi.BYU.edu/publications/jbms/?vo ... m=1&id=357


People who want to "go out of their way to stress the physicality and objective reality" of a thing don't claim to have beheld it with "spiritual eyes." Also, Martin Harris, one of the biggest dupes I've ever come across, was sent away when the angel failed to appear, which he stated was because he was not "sufficiently sanctified." When the others claimed to have seen the angel and plates in his absence, that put him under pressure to have such an experience himself.

As usual, the output of the FARMS/FAIR clown car is pathetic.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)
_Calculus Crusader
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

Also, it is important to note that Joseph Smith, claiming to speak for God, commanded dupe Harris to give specific testimony of the plates lest he be condemned.

D&C 5
26 And I the Lord command him, my servant Martin Harris, that he shall say no more unto them concerning these things, except he shall say: I have seen them, and they have been shown unto me by the power of God; and these are the words which he shall say.
27 But if he deny this he will break the covenant which he has before covenanted with me, and behold, he is condemned.


The Mormon god speaks like a racketeer.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

CC, you're not stupid. But you come across as an exceptionally belligerent adolescent. You might be worth talking with if you acted twenty-five or so.

Did you actually look at the article?

The particular FARMS clown who authored it, Richard Lloyd Anderson, is a scholarly hero of mine who went back for a doctorate in ancient history at Berkeley after his Harvard law degree left him unsatisfied. He's a very bright fellow, and an exceptionally meticulous historian, and is not to be lightly dismissed by anybody who is himself or herself not to be lightly dismissed.
_beastie
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _beastie »

by the way - this reply to the article cited by Dan should not, under any circumstances, be interpreted as an "invitation" or "demand" to Dan to respond to my points. I understand that Dan refuses to interact with me on points of substance. However, his lack of interest is not going to prevent me from responding to points he has raised. I do not care if Dan responds to me, but I think it's quite unreasonable for him to expect the privilege of responding to my points as he sees fit while simultaneously seeming to expect me to ignore those same points.

I was already aware of the physical descriptions offered of the plates. However, they’re not always consistent. I have several citations on my website page here addressing this concern:

http://mormonmesoamerica.com/metallurgy ... 0artifacts

Compare, for example, Oliver’s description:



These records were engraved on plates, which had the [p. 12] appearance of gold. Each plate was not far from seven by eight inches in width and length, being not quite as thick as common tin. They were filled on both sides with engravings, in Egyptian characters, and bound together in a volume, as the leaves of a book, fastened at one edge with three rings running through the whole. This volume was something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed. The characters or letters upon the unsealed part were small, and beautifully engraved.

With Emma’s description:
Emma Smith Bidamon Interview with Joseph Smith III, February 1879 p 539
The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at con=cealment, wrapped in a small linen <table> cloth, which I had given him to fold them in. I have felt of the plates, as they lay on the table, tracing their outline [p. 8] and shape. They seemed to be pliable like st thick paper, and would rustle <with a mettalic sound> when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book.


Numerous accounts also stated that there were engravings on both sides. Gold that can be engraved on both sides has to be of a minimum thickness In order to avoid the “negative” being impressed on the other side of the plate. This would indicate a certain prerequisite thickness. Yet Emma claimed that the pages would “rustle” when the “edges were moved by the thumb”.
How in the world could metal plates that were thick enough for engravings on both side at the same time be thin enough to allow the thumb to flip through them, making them “rustle”?

I’ll come back with some other points later.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Calculus Crusader
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

Daniel Peterson wrote:CC, you're not stupid. But you come across as an exceptionally belligerent adolescent. You might be worth talking with if you acted twenty-five or so.


Tertullian was hardly an adolescent when he started writing his scathing polemics. (I share his polemical disposition but not his contempt of Greek philosophy.)

Daniel Peterson wrote:Did you actually look at the article?


Yes, actually, I did. (Although, I skimmed some.)

Daniel Peterson wrote:The particular FARMS clown who authored it, Richard Lloyd Anderson, is a scholarly hero of mine who went back for a doctorate in ancient history at Berkeley after his Harvard law degree left him unsatisfied. He's a very bright fellow, and an exceptionally meticulous historian, and is not to be lightly dismissed by anybody who is himself or herself not to be lightly dismissed.


That may be, but bright people also make erroneous claims. Another, earlier, example, would be Orson Pratt. Pratt had mathematical aptitude, apparently, but he was still a dupe for believing Joseph Smith.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

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_AlmaBound
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _AlmaBound »

Calculus Crusader wrote:Also, it is important to note that Joseph Smith, claiming to speak for God, commanded dupe Harris to give specific testimony of the plates lest he be condemned.


Hi CC - I've got a few of questions for you that have puzzled me a bit about this:

Why do you think it would be enough for Joseph to just make this claim for Martin to go along with it?

What would Martin be "condemned" of if he did not make the statements he was commanded to make?
_Calculus Crusader
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

AlmaBound wrote:
Calculus Crusader wrote:Also, it is important to note that Joseph Smith, claiming to speak for God, commanded dupe Harris to give specific testimony of the plates lest he be condemned.


Hi CC - I've got a few of questions for you that have puzzled me a bit about this:

Why do you think it would be enough for Joseph to just make this claim for Martin to go along with it?


Smith had Harris convinced that he spoke for God and manipulated him thereby. (This sort of spiritual manipulation was not unique to Joseph Smith, of course.)

What would Martin be "condemned" of if he did not make the statements he was commanded to make?


The implication is that Harris would lose his salvation.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)
_AlmaBound
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _AlmaBound »

Calculus Crusader wrote:Smith had Harris convinced that he spoke for God and manipulated him thereby. (This sort of spiritual manipulation was not unique to Joseph Smith, of course.)


How did he convince him?

The implication is that Harris would lose his salvation.


I think there is a lot more to the story, that there was a stronger hold over Martin and some of the others that extorted them to say the things they did. And I think it is found in the book itself, ironically.
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