The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

[_harmony]

First, Joseph Smith tried his best to escape death. He first tried to run away, and only returned after Emma shamed him into returning. Then he tried to shoot his way out of the dilemma.

I would also try to escape death. Why not? For what it is worth, if this were all a fraud, Emma would have known about it.

Like she knew about all of his extra women? Like she knew about Fanny? Like she knew about Eliza, her supposed best friend?

No way could Joseph Smith keep such a fraud a secret from his wife.

He was nothing if not a skilled storyteller.

She was no mook.

She loved him. He broke her heart repeatedly, and she still loved him. That may make her a mook, I don't know. But it doesn't mean she knew anything about his business.

Emma was not prone to suffer for a fraud. We need to remember that her children were also suffering. If what you say is true, I think that it proves that she was a true believer in her husband.

I have no doubt she was a true believer. That doesn't make Joseph's claims any stronger. And her "suffering" included some pretty nice perks. Let us not forget that.

[_why me]

While I’m not a mind-reader, I’ve never seen any information that would indicate that Paul Dunn did not genuinely believe in the LDS church. So the first point is:

1) Paul Dunn genuinely believed in the LDS church.

I’ve also never seen any information that would indicate that Paul Dunn was insane in some way, in that he was unable to recognize that the stories he was telling were not actually true, but were fiction. So the second point is:

2) Paul Dunn knew the stories he was telling were not true.

I think those two points are beyond debate. The third point is where we begin to have to speculate, as you are asking us to do on this thread. Why did Paul Dunn lie? Why did he enact a fraud on the LDS people? Maybe there was a bit of ego involved, and a desire for attention. After all, he was famous as the best speaker in the LDS church, and in extremely high demand. He certainly sold quite a few books, so maybe there was some financial incentive. Most importantly, he could see that his stories encouraged faith in the LDS church. People told him, over and over, how he strengthened their testimonies. And they also told him how the SPIRIT bore witness of the truth of the things he was teaching.

3) Paul Dunn could see a positive effect of his lies. The SPIRIT testified to the larger truth of what he was teaching, despite the lies.

Here is the scoop on Paul H. Dunn. Paul felt a lot of pressure to give good talks. People enjoyed his stories. I am sure that he did not start out lying. But in time, he felt the human pressure to keep his stories going. He made a human mistake. I am not perfect, nor are you. And Paul was not perfect. But he began to stretch the truth. But yes, he believe in the LDS church which by the way is made up of people who are human beings. But Paul made a terrible human mistake. There is a lesson in his mistake for all of us.

But this has nothing to do with Joseph Smith. He was in a different ball park. Paul was discovered as would be the case. But Joseph keep right on going. Nothing to discover that would be so earth shattering. The Paul Dunn story is a confirmation that frauds or lies are eventually discovered.

[_why me]

You seriously think you would WELCOME that news??????

by the way, did you ever address the fact that Joseph Smith went out of his way to slander and libel the witnesses as soon as they started to turn??? He clearly was determined to convince members not to listen to these men. To repeat one of my earlier points:

Joseph Smith and other church leaders described the three witnesses as: too mean to mention and below warrant of notice, braying ass, having a lying, deceptive spirit, given to all sorts of malicious and criminal behavior including abominations, lying, cheating, swindling, and all kinds of debauchery, counterfeiters, thieves, liars, and blacklegs, scoundrels of the deepest degree.

I would definitely welcome the news that it were a fraud. In fact, I would do an Irish Jig backwards with a smile on my face. But it will never happen.

Here is my take on the witnesses. If it were a fraud Joseph Smith would not attack them. Like I said, if all 11 would get together and sign a statement that it were a fraud, the game would be over. Why attack fellow fraudsters? Too dangerous. Also, when Smith was murdered, it would have been a great time to come clean. How could 11 men allow others to live a fraud without losing sleep? Impossible. Someone would have broken from the fold. We are not dealing with sociopaths or psychopaths with these witnesses.

The witnesses and their story are the key. And so far I see no evidence of waving from their signed statement.

[_maklelan]

Why shouldn't it be tossed out? I mean... isn't this a case of fool some of the people all of the time? Some people are just born dupes.

It wouldn't be particularly objective to toss it out just because your gut tells you its not true.

[_why me]

Like she knew about all of his extra women? Like she knew about Fanny? Like she knew about Eliza, her supposed best friend?

He was nothing if not a skilled storyteller.

She loved him. He broke her heart repeatedly, and she still loved him. That may make her a mook, I don't know. But it doesn't mean she knew anything about his business.

I have no doubt she was a true believer. That doesn't make Joseph's claims any stronger. And her "suffering" included some pretty nice perks. Let us not forget that.

Emma knew about the women. Like I said, she was no mook. I cannot say that he broke her heart repeatedly. He wrote beautiful letters to her, especially from prison. However, Emma was no fan of polygamy. And that was her bedbug. But she was a believer and she was with him from the beginning. She felt the plates and saw the translation process. She never accused Joseph Smith of lying about the Book of Mormon. If Joseph Smith were a fraud, she would have known. She was no mook.

What perks? Being burned out, having her husband tar and feathered, suffering the death of her children, having no permanent home. I see no perks in pain. Do you? One reason why she did not join up with the Mormons who came back to Nauvoo was because of all the pain and suffering that she had to endure. Was that a perk?

[_why me]

Why shouldn't it be tossed out? I mean... isn't this a case of fool some of the people all of the time? Some people are just born dupes.

I think that you need to look into the mirror and ask a simple question about who you are. If we toss out Joseph Smith, we might as well toss out the LDS church. But you still attend and have a temple recommend. Amazing.

[_EAllusion]

No, it simply means there were people who certainly thought he was legit. I don't think he found a thing, but some people obviously did, and that shouldn't be tossed out the window.

With slippery treasures leaving only a feather, I wouldn't be surprised if some tastes of treasure were found. Regardless, I found your reply odd because while we can't toss out what witnesses say, their testimony also does not give an ounce of credibility to Smith's treasure-digging. So why bring it up?

[_maklelan]

With slippery treasures leaving only a feather, I wouldn't be surprised if some tastes of treasure were found. Regardless, I found your reply odd because while we can't toss out what witnesses say, their testimony also does not give an ounce of credibility to Smith's treasure-digging. So why bring it up?

Because the assertion was made that Smith was a "known con-man" simply because he claimed to be able to find buried treasure.

[_Dr. Shades]

We critics have been giving you the news that it's all a fraud for years and years now--why haven't you welcomed the news?

The evidence that is usually presented is hypothetical illustrations.

So it goes with all the other religions that you reject.

Plus, no one has produced the silver bullet that gives conclusive proof that it is a fraud.

The same can be said about Scientology, the Moonies, the Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate, and the People's Temple.

But if it were conclusively proven, members would welcome it eventually. Better to learn of a fraud than to keep living it.

In your mind, has any religion been conclusively proven to be a fraud? If so, which one(s)?

[_harmony]

What perks?

Having a husband who was famous, who was revered, who wasn't required to work with his hands. Have you seen the picture of the Nauvoo Mansion? Not too shabby, for a man who worked only a handful of days all the days of his life.

The only problem with those perks were the extra women. And she left that behind when he died and she refused to move to the wilderness.