Islam in the United States, with Mormons

[_harmony]

Let us make an image of DCP and bow down before him. Let him be our God! Praise him forever more!

Give him time, Paul. He hasn't been celestialized and been given his harem yet.

[_Paul Osborne]

Let us make an image of DCP and bow down before him. Let him be our God! Praise him forever more!

Give him time, Paul. He hasn't been celestialized and been given his harem yet.

Oh Harmony, I just want to grab and kiss you. Oh, excuse me -- I'm a bit out of order.



Paul O

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hello,

I think I owe Mr. Rcrocket a little more explanation as to why it is unimportant if he knows some affable Muslims and why they may or may not tacitly support violent jihad.

The concepts of jihad as declared by “Islamists", "extremists” or "radicals" have always and will always find full definition and description in the body of Islamic law as defined by recognized imams, ulemahs, and authoritative sources. On questions of jihadist doctrine, there is no ability to challenge the doctrinal supremacy “Islamists” enjoy. Whether you start with a review of modern Hanafi law, then perhpas turn to historical authoritative sources like the Quran, hadiths, al-Shafii, Malik ibn Anas, ibn Khaldun, ibn Kathir and ibn Averoes, and then back to the 20th and 21st centuries to review a currently valid restatement of Islamic law, an interlocking, overlapping, seamless web of Islamic law on jihad can be identified that is uncommonly unified and consistent that defines jihad as “warfare against non-Muslims to establish the religion.”

Whether the rules of Islamic law was defined by an 8th century Arab, a 9th century Uzebki, a 12th century Spaniard, a 14th century North African, or even a 20th century Arab, Pakistani, Indian, Malaysian or American. All conformed to the idea that jihad does not end until the world has been brought under the dar al-Islam, or the House of Peace. All discussions of jihad reflected and reflect scholarly consensus and the primacy of Surah Nine, the last surah chronologically revealed to discuss jihad. The idea that Islamic law establishes the Greater Jihad, or the peaceful interior struggle that we hear so much about, is folly and a tactical deception.

Allah is our goal; the Messenger is our guide; the Quran is our constitution; Jihad is our means; and martyrdom in the way of Allah is our inspiration.

- Muslim Brotherhood in America

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

[_cksalmon]

The spontaneous jubilance with which Palestinian Muslims received news of the fall of the towers in NY suggests to my mind an endemic cultural perspective.

My wife and I had American friends living in Palestine at the time who said that that demonstration was a very small-scale thing artificially ginned up for reporters' cameras, and who reported calls and visits from scores of Palestinians expressing grief and outrage over the events of 9/11.

What is now the Maxwell Institute had a camera crew in the Yemen on 9/11, out in the remote desert with a band of Kalashnikov-wielding Bedouins as their guides and bodyguards. (They were filming for our DVD Journey of Faith.) When the news reached them, the Bedouins were demonstrative in their expressions of remorse for what had happened. Over strenuous protests, one of the Bedouins insisted that a friend and colleague of mine accept his -- the Bedouin's -- elegant dagger (almost certainly his most prized possession) as a token of the man's sorrow and regret for what had happened.

I'm sincerely sure it was quite touching for all involved. In Yemen. With the Bedouins.

"An endemic cultural perspective"?

An endemic cultural perspective.

My favorite part is when Muslim Mouse pantomimes shooting the AK-47 mentioned in the 11-year-old's song.

cks

[_J Green]

Hi, cks

I'm sincerely sure it was quite touching for all involved. In Yemen. With the Bedouins.

On 9/11 I was in D.C. working at one of our Intel agencies. The next few days were spent looking at much of the extremist activity across the ME, especially Yemen, since my dad was one of those holed up in the compound as described by DCP. You can imagine my concern. So yes, the events of which he speaks are quite touching to me. Quite personal, in fact.

Just as it was quite personal when two weeks shy of my 14th birthday, one of my best friends at the time (Andrew Kerr) lost his father, Malcom Kerr--President of AUB--to virulent Muslim extremism. My dad got the call from Ann Kerr and had to go break the news to the Kerr kids, who were still living in Egypt with the oldest son (who worked for AID). Just as it was personal when my family spent a few frantic days locked in our villa in a suburb of Cairo when Sadat was assassinated by Muslim extremists and the only news amid the chaos was what we learned from BBC. Etc.

I've followed religious extremism in the ME for much of my life, and I'd be surprised if your antipathy could match mine. I just don't think becoming like them in your reasoning and perspective is the right answer. Jejune stereotypes that paint an entire religion and culture in a certain way (a Hamas video as representative of "an endemic cultural perspective," etc.) remind me too much of the filth I read from them.

An endemic cultural perspective.

My favorite part is when Muslim Mouse pantomimes shooting the AK-47 mentioned in the 11-year-old's song.

Quite despicable, really. And there's more where that came from, when it comes to Hamas TV. Besides the mouse (Farfur) you link to here, there are Nahul (a bee), and Assud (a rabbit), which aren't any better. But at least you chose a Farfur episode where the translations by PMW or MEMRI aren't as problematic (e.g., the "suicide bombers" episode; MEMRI's translations are often problematic, by the way). By all means, link to them all. But I'm still waiting for the analysis that bridges TV Episodes from a known Terrorist organization to an "endemic cultural perspective" that shows us how extremist Islam equals "chapel Islam" (if that term even makes any sense). What's playing on Egyptian TV? What about Kuwait? Indonesia? What was the reaction from the rest of the Arab and Muslim world on 9/11? Do you see any nuances at all? What factors are involved? Where's the reasoned, holistic approach with context and substance? A link and a one-dimensional stereotype reminds me too much of their propaganda.

In my current job I frequently peruse much of the media from the ME. Right now I'm digesting the results of the Berkman Center's (Harvard) study on Mapping the Arabic blogosphere. See the BBC article (along with comments from Saad Ibrahim, a family friend) here. It's a good follow-up to their analysis of the Iranian blog scene. But this report analyzes over 35,000 active Arabic blogs and looks at them for patterns and movements. I wonder if I'll find your endemic cultural perspective reflected there. Care to join me in a three-dimensional world?

Regards

[_Daniel Peterson]

Bravo, J Green!

[_Joey]

And for the need of a lighter side to this thread:


Three strangers strike up a conversation in the passenger lounge in Bozeman,
Montana, while waiting for their flights...

One is an American Indian passing through from Lame Deer, another is a
Cowboy on his way to the "Days of 47 Rodeo" in Salt Lake and the third passenger
is a fundamentalist Arab student, newly arrived at Montana State University
from the Middle East .


Their discussion drifts to their diverse cultures. Soon, the two Westerners
learn that the Arab is a devout, radical Muslim and the conversation falls into an uneasy lull.


The cowboy leans back in his chair, crosses his boots on a magazine table,
tips his big sweat-stained hat forward over his face, and lights a cigarette.


The wind outside is blowing tumbleweeds around, and the old windsock is
flapping; but still no plane comes.


Finally, the American Indian clears his throat and softly he speaks, "At one
time here... my people were many... but sadly, now we are few."

The Muslim student raises an eyebrow and leans forward, 'Once my people were
few,' he sneers, 'and now we are many. Why do you suppose that is?'


The cowboy removes his cigarette from his mouth and from the darkness beneath his Stetson says in a smooth drawl . . .

"I reckon that's 'cause we ain't played Cowboys and Muslims yet,
but I do believe it's a-comin'."

[Edited to find compliance with thread title]

[Guest]

Hello,

I suppose the question is what separates a lone killer who is Muslim from a committed jihadi who acts alone? Or gangsters who happen to be Muslim versus a Jihadi cell? It is obvious to all that both both groups exist. What divides them into two camps?

Holy Rage, Sir.

“It is holy rage … press on with your holy rage until you make them regret.” -Hojatoleslam Ahmad Khatami

"The nation must rage in anger. It is told that Imam Al-Shafi'i said: 'Whoever was
angered and did not rage is a jackass.' We are not a nation of jackasses. We are not
jackasses for riding, but lions that roar. We are lions that zealously protect their dens, and
avenge affronts to their sanctities. We are not a nation of jackasses. We are a nation that
should rage for the sake of Allah, His Prophet, and His book. We are the nation of
Muhammad, and we must never accept the degradation of our religion. … "We must
rage, and show our rage to the world."- Yusuf Qaradawi, Muslim Brotherhood

Asma was the wife of Yazid Ibn Zayd Ibn Hisn al-Khatmi. She used to revile Islam,
offend the prophet and instigated the people against him. She composed verses.

Umayr Ibn Adi came to her in the night and entered her house. Her children were sleeping
around her. There was one whom she was suckling. He searched her with his hand
because he was blind, and separated the child from her. He thrust his sword in her chest
till it pierced up to her back. Then he offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-
Medina. The apostle of Allah said to him: "Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?"
He said: "Yes. Is there something more for me to do?"

Islamic law recognizes insults against Islam as a capital crime. In my opinion, Sir... What does not eventually insult Muslims as far as the infidel is concerned? What kind of protection does a non-Muslim have in an Islamic state, and can that change at the drop of a hat when "Holy Rage" is invoked by a person, imam, or the state; namely, if a non-Muslim leads a Muslim away from Islam; or mentions something impermissible about Allah, Muhammad, or violates a tenant of Shariah (non-Muslim women wearing pants, for example, are routinely whipped for being indiscrete)?

We have to accept when members of the Islamic community, who carry some degree of authority act in accordance with Shariah, then the assumption has to be that they are aware of what they are saying and doing, and this is not isolated incidents of "extremist Muslims" or "fanatics". It is, clearly, sanctioned behavior under Islamic law.

It is, clearly, within the context of the Islamic concept of subduing the hearts and minds of the kaffur, and waging individual, group, and state-sponsored jihad (Quranic warfare). Holy rage is the difference between lawful warfare and criminal activity. And, Sir, a lot of Muslims are perpetually enraged, and encouraged by religious edicts, lawful courts, media, and state institutions to be so and act accordingly.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

[_cksalmon]

Hi, cks

On 9/11 I was in D.C. working at one of our Intel agencies. The next few days were spent looking at much of the extremist activity across the ME, especially Yemen, since my dad was one of those holed up in the compound as described by DCP. You can imagine my concern. So yes, the events of which he speaks are quite touching to me. Quite personal, in fact.

Just as it was quite personal when two weeks shy of my 14th birthday, one of my best friends at the time (Andrew Kerr) lost his father, Malcom Kerr--President of AUB--to virulent Muslim extremism. My dad got the call from Ann Kerr and had to go break the news to the Kerr kids, who were still living in Egypt with the oldest son (who worked for AID). Just as it was personal when my family spent a few frantic days locked in our villa in a suburb of Cairo when Sadat was assassinated by Muslim extremists and the only news amid the chaos was what we learned from BBC. Etc.

I've followed religious extremism in the ME for much of my life, and I'd be surprised if your antipathy could match mine. I just don't think becoming like them in your reasoning and perspective is the right answer. Jejune stereotypes that paint an entire religion and culture in a certain way (a Hamas video as representative of "an endemic cultural perspective," etc.) remind me too much of the filth I read from them.

An endemic cultural perspective.

My favorite part is when Muslim Mouse pantomimes shooting the AK-47 mentioned in the 11-year-old's song.

Quite despicable, really. And there's more where that came from, when it comes to Hamas TV. Besides the mouse (Farfur) you link to here, there are Nahul (a bee), and Assud (a rabbit), which aren't any better. But at least you chose a Farfur episode where the translations by PMW or MEMRI aren't as problematic (e.g., the "suicide bombers" episode; MEMRI's translations are often problematic, by the way). By all means, link to them all. But I'm still waiting for the analysis that bridges TV Episodes from a known Terrorist organization to an "endemic cultural perspective" that shows us how extremist Islam equals "chapel Islam" (if that term even makes any sense). What's playing on Egyptian TV? What about Kuwait? Indonesia? What was the reaction from the rest of the Arab and Muslim world on 9/11? Do you see any nuances at all? What factors are involved? Where's the reasoned, holistic approach with context and substance? A link and a one-dimensional stereotype reminds me too much of their propaganda.

In my current job I frequently peruse much of the media from the ME. Right now I'm digesting the results of the Berkman Center's (Harvard) study on Mapping the Arabic blogosphere. See the BBC article (along with comments from Saad Ibrahim, a family friend) here. It's a good follow-up to their analysis of the Iranian blog scene. But this report analyzes over 35,000 active Arabic blogs and looks at them for patterns and movements. I wonder if I'll find your endemic cultural perspective reflected there. Care to join me in a three-dimensional world?

Regards

Hi J--

Some comments, largely derived from the article at your second link.

"'Blogger,'" Mr Ibrahim said, "has become almost a revered term in Egypt. Groups that are otherwise completely disenfranchised, the only outlet for them is online."

If I read Mr. Ibrahim's statement correctly, here, it suggests that some "bloggers" in Egypt (say, those of a secular reformist mindset), for example, comprise groups with no real political power or influence in Egypt. They are on the fringe of their culture. Their only outlet is "online."

Further, Mr. Ibrahim notes, dissident bloggers have, unfortunately, reaped official retribution, including imprisonment and torture by Egypt's authorities. I do note an encouraging tidbit: Mr. Ibrahim suggests that the mistreatment of dissident bloggers has galvanized public opinion in their defense. I hope that that is, indeed, the case.

From the article:

The one political topic that did cut across all the various clusters in the Arabic blogging world, however, was the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, in particular the situation in Gaza.

Indeed, that is one of my primary points of interest, as well.

You ask: "I wonder if I'll find your endemic cultural perspective reflected there."

Apparently not. As the article you've linked to suggests, "Jihadists aren't blogging." And the study only analyzed publicly accessible blogs, and so should not be considered a survey of the entire Arabic-speaking world, and "we have no idea whether, or to what degree, these attitudes reflect broader public opinion," and "we want to delve into more extremist views...we would also like to do similar mapping with offline groups and compare and contrast them with online groups."

Further, "And those that are online, Mr Jarrar said, 'tend to participate in private group websites or bulletin boards, not public blogs. And so it's skewed. It's all about how [sic; read: who] gets to have access, who speaks English, and who gets linked to by the Western media.'"

So, in point of fact, the article suggests, to my mind, that there really is no way, based on the study itself, to make any hard conclusions about what the survey tells us about extremism in ME.

It was an interesting article, J, but, really, your summarizing question---"I wonder if I'll find your endemic cultural perspective reflected there"--strikes me as something of a no-brainer. Of course you won't. Given the ambiguous ("we have no idea whether, or to what degree, these attitudes reflect broader public opinion"), skewed ("those that are online...'tend to participate in private group websites or bulletin boards, not public blogs"), narrow ("the study was only designed to analyze publicly accessible blogs") nature of the study, I don't believe we have any reason whatsoever to believe that if, as I have suggested, there is an endemic cultural perspective in play, this study has either the scope or focus to say anything definitive about it.

One thing it does tell me, J., at least with regard to the apparently disenfranchised bloggers in Egypt, is that the cultural-fringe, counter-cultural bloggers apparently tend to get arrested and tortured by Egyptian authorities. Which doesn't, of course, seem to my mind, to provide evidence against my own 'two-dimensional' perspective.

At any rate, that's my take on the article at your second link.

For what it's worth, "chapel Islam," I will admit, was something of a caricatured representation. I will gladly renounce the term in favor of one you believe does justice to my two-dimensional thinking while avoiding an overlap with a description derived from a contentious LDS-specific debate.

In other news, J, generally, I'm all for nuance and context. I sincerely appreciate your call for a more nuanced discussion. We all have blind spots, inspired by personal experience, cultural aporia, generally, personal inclinations, religious convictions, etc. I will attempt mightily to join you in the third dimension.

There was nothing insincere, by the way, in my agreement with Dr. Peterson that the experience he relates of a colleague in Yemen was quite touching to all involved. It just didn't speak to my personal concerns.

Best.

cks

[_J Green]

Hi, cks

I think the study is one useful tool among many. I encourage you to read the entire text and not just the BBC Article. And, as you suggest, monitoring a wider range of media from several areas--not simply blogs--is also crucial to arriving at an informed opinion.

If I read Mr. Ibrahim's statement correctly, here, it suggests that some "bloggers" in Egypt (say, those of a secular reformist mindset), for example, comprise groups with no real political power or influence in Egypt. They are on the fringe of their culture. Their only outlet is "online."

Further, Mr. Ibrahim notes, dissident bloggers have, unfortunately, reaped official retribution, including imprisonment and torture by Egypt's authorities. I do note an encouraging tidbit: Mr. Ibrahim suggests that the mistreatment of dissident bloggers has galvanized public opinion in their defense. I hope that that is, indeed, the case.

The study shows that a 1/3 of the public Arabic bloggers originate in an Egypt cluster. Given this, and as it's the most populous Arab country, perhaps it's a good test case for this discussion. Outside the study context, where does Mubarek's government fit into your pan-Islamic extremism theory? And how does it relate to the Imam of the Al-Azhar? I.e., do Tantawi's views reflect this endemic cultural perspective as well? If his views are relevant, do they reflect nationally or internationally? If we look back at the study, we find both broad leftist secular anti-Mubarek political blogging as well as some online presence of Muslim Brotherhood, which portrays fairly accurately the actual opposition on the ground. Given this construct, can you articulate a majority-view paradigm for Egypt that aligns with your theory, or is Egypt an anomaly? Since the blogsphere won't capture everything, as you point out, what do you understand the atmosphere to be based on all sources?

From the article:
Quote:
The one political topic that did cut across all the various clusters in the Arabic blogging world, however, was the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, in particular the situation in Gaza.

Indeed, that is one of my primary points of interest, as well.

I did notice that the two clips you've linked in this thread both have this context. And it's an intriguing part of the discussion. What is your understanding of the secular-religious divide vis-a-vis the Palestinian issue? Or is there one? If so, does a Hamas dominance in the elections in recent years reflect a constituency that is moving toward religious extremism or does it reflect frustration at a Fatah failure to provide a viable economic infrastructure? Or all of the above? If there is a fracture, how does it affect your extremism theory? Israeli Army Intelligence has certainly had their difference with Israeli national Intelligence sources over the years on this issue. What do you think? And is all anti-western sentiment religious and extremist in origin? Or are there other factors involved? If there are, how do they influence your theory?

Further, if the study itself is too limiting and fails the reflection test because it excludes the online jihadists, how would it compare to simply linking to one TV episode from Hamas in terms of representing large swaths of culture and religion? Is it more representative or less so? Generally, if we link only to examples of extremist behavior that exclude non-extremist samples, would we be commiting the same error? What's the best approach?

You ask: "I wonder if I'll find your endemic cultural perspective reflected there."

Apparently not. As the article you've linked to suggests, "Jihadists aren't blogging." And the study only analyzed publicly accessible blogs, and so should not be considered a survey of the entire Arabic-speaking world, and "we have no idea whether, or to what degree, these attitudes reflect broader public opinion," and "we want to delve into more extremist views...we would also like to do similar mapping with offline groups and compare and contrast them with online groups."

Further, "And those that are online, Mr Jarrar said, 'tend to participate in private group websites or bulletin boards, not public blogs. And so it's skewed. It's all about how [sic; read: who] gets to have access, who speaks English, and who gets linked to by the Western media.'"

So, in point of fact, the article suggests, to my mind, that there really is no way, based on the study itself, to make any hard conclusions about what the survey tells us about extremism in ME.

It was an interesting article, J, but, really, your summarizing question---"I wonder if I'll find your endemic cultural perspective reflected there"--strikes me as something of a no-brainer. Of course you won't. Given the ambiguous ("we have no idea whether, or to what degree, these attitudes reflect broader public opinion"), skewed ("those that are online...'tend to participate in private group websites or bulletin boards, not public blogs"), narrow ("the study was only designed to analyze publicly accessible blogs") nature of the study, I don't believe we have any reason whatsoever to believe that if, as I have suggested, there is an endemic cultural perspective in play, this study has either the scope or focus to say anything definitive about it.

The study does find a separation between spheres it labels 'public publics' and 'private publics.' And you're right, the jihadists for the most part are not participating in the first. We'd also want to look at other media forms, as you suggest (and I frequently do). But does this mean the study can't tell us anything about whether or not there is an endemic cultural perspective? If there is a fracture here, and we have a group of 35,000 non-extremist Arabic bloggers (including Islamists generally as a large grouping), what does it tell us about these societies generally? Nothing? Obviously it points to some religious and cultural pluralism, but how much? Is the footprint large enough to lend texture and depth to any discussion about a monolithic 'anything' in this part of the world? When we combine it with other forms of media in this part of the world, how does this view change?

One thing it does tell me, J., at least with regard to the apparently disenfranchised bloggers in Egypt, is that the cultural-fringe, counter-cultural bloggers apparently tend to get arrested and tortured by Egyptian authorities. Which doesn't, of course, seem to my mind, to provide evidence against my own 'two-dimensional' perspective.

Which brings us back to my first set of questions. Do you view the Egyptian authorities as reflective of your pan-religious extremism theory? Your answer would seem to indicate a yes. Granted that there are legitimacy of authority, abuse of power, freedom of expression, and other general human rights issues there (Saad Ibrihim was imprisoned for a while by this government), do you see this as reflective of any other factors other than religion? If not, where do the Muslim Brotherhood and other extremist anti-Mubarek factions fit in to the theory?

In other news, J, generally, I'm all for nuance and context. I sincerely appreciate your call for a more nuanced discussion. We all have blind spots, inspired by personal experience, cultural aporia, generally, personal inclinations, religious convictions, etc. I will attempt mightily to join you in the third dimension.

Fire up the Millenium Falcon, we're going for warp speed. (My blind spots usually involve key lime pie.) But in all seriousness, simplifying the equation into a monolithic religious struggle in the context of a crusade redivivus is to buy into the opposition's information operations campaign. And in assymetric warfare, it's all about the IO campaign. If we buy theirs, they win.