The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Maklelan is right.

Harmony is wrong.

Maklelan knows what he's talking about.

Harmony . . . has poor DCNC4M(8) on her side.

Hello Sir,

I reference Mr. Maklelan's interactions with Ms. Beastie.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

[_harmony]

What do you classify as "real work"? Please show a consistent employment record for Joseph Smith, which includes his extensive list of "real work".

Do you really mean to aver that "real work" entails employment? You've never worked on a farm or made extensive repairs to your own home before, have you? This is an utterly ludicrous inference, harm.

Actually, Mak, I've lived on a farm all my life, with the exception of my 9 months in a dorm room. I still live on a farm.

And "real work" entails employment. Even farming qualifies as employment, Mak. So let's see the chronology of Joseph's employment. You're the one making the assertion that he has an employment record, so produce it.

(Bilking people out of their money doesn't count as "real work".)

Joseph never had money. I don't know where you get the idea he was bilking people out of their money.

Treasure hunting, promising people that he could find buried treasure with his peepstone... being arrested for it... but then you knew that, didn't you, Mak? You just hoped I didn't.

I'm very interested to see it. And since he lived the vast majority of his life "on the members' dime", I don't see how you have much of a list. (Incidently, prison time doesn't count as "real work" either, but since while he was incarcerated, Emma and his family were taken care of by others, that does count as "on the members' dime".)

And you find that reprehensible?

No paid clergy. A worker is worthy of his hire--except when he doesn't work and simply stays with other people, living on their bounty, embarrassing poor Emma by being a husband who didn't support her. Funny how that works.

Actually, yes, I am. Closer than you, anyway. You might want to look under my name. Since Shades is God here...

I wasn't aware that one's number of posts dictated some kind of unquestionable hierarchy.

Ummm. Lower. Status would be what you're looking for. And it's only useful when it comes down to deleting spam and duplicate posts. But still... closer to God if for no other reason than that Liz lets me use the Goddess Suite occasionally.

I'm waiting your correction.

Take off the blinders.

Where's the list that shows where you're correcting me? Don't forget to include the incarcerations and the treasure hunting.

But you haven't, Mak. You have asserted, but you haven't corrected anything. Show me what ya got.

I already explained why Joseph Smith cannot be asserted to have avoided hard labor.

I didn't say he avoided hard labor. I said he avoided "real work". Now hard labor could be "real work", but "real work" also includes lots of other things that would not necessarily be hard labor. And how could he have been performing "real work" or even "hard labor" (as in earning a living for his family), if he was putting all that time into writing the Book of Mormon?

I'm not going to copy and paste dozens of journal entries because you're not willing to do your due diligence. If that irks you then grow up.

Thanks. I've already read some of them... all those accounts of him promising to find buried treasure are so entertaining!

[Guest]

I don't imagine that it will have any impact on harmony's oft-stated hostility to Joseph Smith, but here's a little note that I wrote some years back on the notion that the Smiths were lazy:

"Can the 1834 Affidavits Attacking the Smith Family Be Trusted?"

It's on line, at

http://mi.BYU.edu/publications/insights ... um=9&id=26

You just need to scroll down a bit.

Of course, the original article, by Don Enders, is the place to go for the full story.



.

[_maklelan]

Actually, Mak, I've lived on a farm all my life, with the exception of my 9 months in a dorm room. I still live on a farm.

Then you should no better than to assert that employment records would be the only way to establish that he worked hard.

And "real work" entails employment. Even farming qualifies as employment, Mak.

Only if you're selling stuff. I grew up in a religious commune (Southern Baptist) on a 100 acre farm where everything we grew or tended was for our own consumption. The men worked the farm all day and the women did odd jobs for the local community for a little bit of extra cash. Both are "real work," and I'm tired of this disgusting display of cognitive dissonance. You know far better than to try to defend such a ridiculous idea.

[_beastie]

That perfectly describes scraping out the letters. Cutting out small amounts of material is how you scrape inscriptions into thin metal. You're not the first to contemplate this problem, and I'm not the first to show that it's not problematic, so you might as well just move on to something a little more in your wheelhouse.

I’m sure you have found your own assertions very persuasive. I haven’t.

Gold plates that would rustle when flipped with the thumb cannot be much thicker than Reynolds Wrap. Just how thick are you suggesting they could be?

It would be helpful if you shared an example of plates of similar thickness with engravings on both sides.

Perhaps “erosion” wasn’t the best term for what I have in mind – more like flattened by a thousand years of being compressed by sixty pounds of weight.

[_maklelan]

I’m sure you have found your own assertions very persuasive. I haven’t.

Of course you haven't. I'm a Latter-day Saint. I didn't enter this discussion with the misapprehension that you would admit error, I entered it so more objective people reading don't get fooled by your a priori guesses pawned off as facts.

Gold plates that would rustle when flipped with the thumb cannot be much thicker than Reynolds Wrap. Just how thick are you suggesting they could be?

I have 120 pound Bristol board that is much thicker than tin foil, and it rustles when a stack of sheets is rubbed around. You seem to think "rustle" can only refer to the folding of paper. It can also refer to the movement of sheets back and forth without folding. Keep in mind three rings running through holes allegedly kept this book bound. That affords quite a bit of looseness, which would allow sheets of metal of considerable thickness to "rustle" when rubbed against each other.

It would be helpful if you shared an example of plates of similar thickness with engravings on both sides.

There's nothing available to the public on the internet, and you don't seem willing to go searching elsewhere.

Perhaps “erosion” wasn’t the best term for what I have in mind – more like flattened by a thousand years of being compressed by sixty pounds of weight.

Not likely with most metals. It's conceivable with pure gold, but there's no real chance the plates could have been pure gold.

[_Calculus Crusader]

Joseph Smith performed manual labor until he discovered the attractive alternative of conning people.

[_wenglund]

Do NOT ever make the mistake of thinking you can tell me or anyone else on this board what to do. If you think my posts are a waste of time, don't read them. But do NOT tell me to stop anything, ever. This isn't MAD and you aren't God here.

I'm sorry, but this just struck me as quite funny, in an ironic sort of way. Aside from the clear overreaction, here we have harmony sternly lecturing Mak about what he can and canNOT do on this board, and this in the process of claiming it is a mistake to do just that.

It's not unlike when a person yells: "Stop yelling" or "You don't need to yell".

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_beastie]

I have 120 pound Bristol board that is much thicker than tin foil, and it rustles when a stack of sheets is rubbed around. You seem to think "rustle" can only refer to the folding of paper. It can also refer to the movement of sheets back and forth without folding. Keep in mind three rings running through holes allegedly kept this book bound. That affords quite a bit of looseness, which would allow sheets of metal of considerable thickness to "rustle" when rubbed against each other.

Emma Smith Bidamon Interview with Joseph Smith III, February 1879 p 539

The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at con=cealment, wrapped in a small linen <table> cloth, which I had given him to fold them in. I have felt of the plates, as they lay on the table, tracing their outline [p. 8] and shape. They seemed to be pliable like st thick paper, and would rustle <with a mettalic sound> when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book.

Joseph Smith III to Mrs. E. Horton, 7 March 1900

“My mother [Emma Smith] told me that she saw the plates in the sack, for they lay on a small table in their living room in their cabin on her father’s farm, and she would lift and move them when she swept and dusted the room and furniture. She even thumbed the leaves as one does the leaves of a book, and they rustled with a metalic sound.

There's nothing available to the public on the internet, and you don't seem willing to go searching elsewhere.

You're the one asserting it's possible, and you insinuate that you have verified this through searching "elsewhere."

So why is it my job to provide evidence to support your assertions?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Joseph Smith performed manual labor until he discovered the attractive alternative of conning people.

That must have happened, at the very least, more than two years after the establishment of the Church in April 1830.

Here is Brigham Young's account of his first meeting with the president of the Church, in the summer of 1832, when he and his brother Joseph and and his friend Heber Kimball traveled to Kirtland, Ohio :

"We went to his [Joseph Smith's] father's house, and learned that he [Joseph Smith] was in the woods, chopping. We immediately repaired to the woods, where we found the Prophet, and two or three of his brothers, chopping and hauling wood."

When exactly, based on your intimate knowledge of his biography, CC, do you think that Joseph Smith gave up actually working? He only has twelve more years, after the summer of 1832 and before his murder by an anti-Mormon mob, in which to do it. Please be specific.