To what extent are TBM/Apologist tastes Brethren-directed?

[Guest]

I'm reading Sophie's Choice right now. I don't think they would assign that to read at BYU. I'm sure there is a rebel lecturer who might mention it as a good read but he would whisper it in the corner to the class.

[_William Schryver]

Being absolutely averse to ever achieving “Godhood” here in The Great and Spacious Trailer Park™, I’ve been reluctant to spend cheaply my last couple posts, but this thread has provoked me to comment.

First of all, there is no doubt that the aspects of haute monde that revolve around the consumption of fine wines and spirits are, quite understandably, largely absent from Mormon-dominated locales.

However, it is quite demonstrably incorrect to equate this one part of “culture” with the whole. And, of course, Gadianton and his fellow Scratches almost certainly understand that. They will, therefore, do everything in their capacity to focus this conversation purely on this relatively minor aspect of high culture, as though any of them is often capable of paying $100 - $250 for a moderately fine vintage bottle of California cabernet. (That, of course, is the most humorous element of Gadianton’s pretentious opening post. The idea that he or any of his Pabst-drinking buddies is likely to be found artfully pulling a cork in Sonoma on a Saturday afternoon is patently laughable!)

In any case, there are many aspects of what I consider to be high culture that are to be found in abundance in Mormondom. Here is a small list off the top of my head:

• Theatre, both classic and modern; Shakespeare and Broadway. Utah is inordinately blessed with numerous absolutely superb theatre companies, from St. George to Logan and most points in between. The production quality is absolutely first-rate, as evidenced (at least in part) by the Utah Shakespearean Festival having, not long ago, garnered the Tony award for best regional theatre in the country. The musicals performed at the Tuacahn theatre in St. George are absolutely superb, as are the various theatre companies in the Salt Lake metro area.
  
• Classical music, both choral and instrumental. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir, the Orchestra at Temple Square, and the Utah Symphony, are but the most visible manifestations of the excellence to be found throughout Utah in this particular arena of high culture. There are first-rate orchestras and choirs in almost every area of the state, and there is almost certainly a greater likelihood of a young LDS man or woman in Utah to be familiar with the works of the classical composers than probably in any other area of America.
  
• Classical dance and ballet. The state of Utah, both in its universities and its private companies, has, for many years, consistently produced some of the most excellent practitioners of classical dance and ballet.
  

I also maintain that there are few other areas in the country that exhibit as pervasively the “family-oriented” cultural amenities that are routinely found in Utah. This, of course, is a very subjective assessment. But I would argue that Utah, with its historical emphasis on lots of parks, wide streets flanked by wide sidewalks and bordered with shade trees; well-organized city centers; safe and secure residential areas; well-stocked public libraries, etc., is more attractive to the family-rearing segment of society than most other areas of the country. In addition, there are certain aspects of Mormon life that are, in my opinion, as indicative of “high culture” as anything to be found in human history. For example, Mormon culture tends to produce a very high quality of extended family orientation. The extended family reunion, usually held annually, is an art form in Mormondom. The level of organization, the quality of the food and activities, and the overall salutary benefits of this particular aspect of Mormonism is increasingly rare in the western world.

Western civilization is tending more and more to atomization of the social unit, whereas Mormonism continues to resist that trend. People with a mature and well-developed understanding of cultural history will readily recognize in Mormonism a cultural vitality that is increasingly hard to detect in the larger American society that surrounds us. As I have had occasion to drive through different areas of the country over the course of the past few years, it is distressing to see the discernible cultural malaise afflicting large swaths of this country, whereas there continues to be a pronounced sense of cultural vibrancy throughout Mormondom. Oh, sure, it is a vibrancy and vitality that may very well not appeal to those more inclined to satiate their “cultural” appetites with fine wines, Robert Mapplethorpe exhibitions, and the kind of wanton despair that is now dominant on the stages of London’s west end—but it is a vitality that is on the ascent, whereas the bulk of western civilization and its accompanying culture is unmistakably on the decline.

So, Gadianton may have a point when he claims that Mormonism is inhospitable to certain aspects of currently popular culture. What he fails to appreciate, however, is that the definition of “high culture” is entirely subjective and constantly in flux. And whereas his preferred “culture” is on the wane, ours is robust and destined to remain long after his empty bottle of cheap Chianti has joined its fellows in the middens of what was pre-millenial America.

Besides, our abstention from the fruit of the vine has always been understood to be temporary in nature. I predict the best wines ever vinted will come from millenial-era vineyards unencumbered by the “noxious weeds” that currently afflict and torment the best efforts of man.

D&C 27

Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies;

Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made new among you; yea, in this my Father’s kingdom which shall be built up on the earth.

Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth …

And also with all those whom my Father hath given me out of the world.

Wherefore, lift up your hearts and rejoice, and gird up your loins, and take upon you my whole armor, that ye may be able to withstand the evil day …

[_karl61]

Utah does well. But then there is the classic Titanic editing job done only in Utah.

[_Doctor Scratch]

Re: Phillip Roth... Did he stop being cool at some point?

I have not the slightest idea. You're the one who cares about what's "cool" or not, and who seems to care rather desperately about being thought "cool."

Such nonsense matters to me not at all.

Actually, you seemed to be intimating that Roth's age somehow renders him "stodgy" and unworthy of being read simply for pleasure, as opposed to being read for Education, Enlightenment, and Wholesome Self-Improvement. I fairly certain that there are plenty of highly cultured, highly intelligent people who understand Roth, and who appreciate his writing. Sadly, TBMs and Mopologists don't seem to be among them. And that is, if I'm not mistaken, the basic point of the OP: TBMs and Mopologists' tastes are dictated by the Brethren. Thus, they aren't permitted to "get" an often bawdy and profane writer like Roth.

Anyways: I'm sure you and Maklelan are a barrel of fun to hang out with. I know that I personally really enjoy hanging out with judgmental TBMs who have no sense of humor, and who seize upon every opportunity to tell me about how they've read Shakespeare's entire canon; have read The Divine Comedy multiple times; and how they prefer King Lear to Ran. I suppose I could entertain myself by counting the flakes of dandruff that fall off your eggheads while you pontificate, but I really think my time would be better spent among more reasonable, less desperate and less stodgy company.

[Guest]

I'm reading Sophie's Choice write now. I don't think they would assign that to read at BYU. I'm sure there is a rebel lecturer who might mention it as a good read but he would whisper it in the corner to the class.

It's Saturday, so I probably can't prove you wrong today.

But here's a little column for the LDS-oriented Meridian Magazine, by my friend Richard Cracroft, former chairman of English at BYU, former dean of humanities at BYU, former president of the Switzerland Zürich Mission, now an emeritus professor of English:

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/classic ... litry.html

Notice that it includes Sophie's Choice.

By the way, I last saw Brother Cracroft at a performance of Leonard Bernstein's Mass up in Salt Lake a couple of months ago. That may well inflame the Scratches. It will either prove that I'm stodgy or that I'm pretentious, or something else negative.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Sadly, TBMs and Mopologists don't seem to be among them.

And this allegation is based on . . . what, exactly?

Did you just make it up?

You're a bitter and malevolent loon, Scratch.

[Guest]

Cultured is recognizing Joseph Smith was a charlatan.

CC, I don't think you realize how silly you look when you dump on Mormons for believing in a preposterous religion. You agree with the Mormons when they say that there's a cosmic primate that created the Earth, and that he can make you live forever if you telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, and that this primate lived on Earth about two thousand years ago and did magic tricks for a couple of years before he was sacrificed to save you from the hell to which he will send you if you get pleasure from looking at boobies, and then he magically came back to life, and that some nomads tripping balls in the desert wrote this stuff down accurately. So, when you treat Mormons like credulous idiots because they also think that this primate visited another group of people who wrote stuff down, it's really quite amusing.

[_karl61]

DCP: I pulled his from the website:

Lists abound: Here is a list, recently published by Orem, Utah Public Library:

Orem Library's Best

"Ten big, thick wonderful books as recommended by Anna Quindlen":

Gone With the Wind, Margaret Mitchell;

Vanity Fair, William Makepeace Thackeray [one of my all-time favorites]

East of Eden, John Steinbeck

The Forsyte Saga, John Galsworthy

Buddenbrooks, Thomas Mann [another of my all-time favorites]

Can You Forgive Her? Anthony Trollope [his Barchester novels are all wonderful!]

Sophie's Choice, William Styron

Underworld, Don DeLillo

Lonesome Dove, Larry McMurtry

[_EAllusion]

That, of course, is the most humorous element of Gadianton’s pretentious opening post

.

You are aware that Gad is mocking DCP's random references to high culture to let everyone know he is living an envious, intellectually sophisticated life, right? If DCP wasn't a Mormon, it would not be out of place for him to mention what fine wine he was drinking while composing a post dismissing his interloctur of being worthy of reply.


As for me, Joey, my interest in you and your issue is at a very low ebb, at least for the moment. It was never very strong in the first place. I'd rather enjoy this 2002 Henschke Hill of Grace Shiraz that was given to me by professor Heinz Doofenschmirtz as an anniversary gift during my most recent trip to London.

[_EAllusion]

Shakespeare can get quite bawdy. The man's got syphilis jokes. The difference is that time has rendered his work "safe."