Rational justification for Polygamy?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Re: Rational justification for Polygamy?

Post by _truth dancer »

God HAD to command powerful men to screw girls and women so their "seed" would be raised to God.

Let's go with this for a sec.... ( :confused: )

OK, so God, the one who created the entire universe couldn't come up with a way to get more people to believe in Joseph Smith other than one that involved "breaking the hearts of his daughters," engaging in behavior clearly in opposition to the teachings of Jesus Christ, and living a life morally repugnant to much of the civilized world?

Seriously?

I mean didn't God think of, oh, I don't know... keeping babies alive? You know,the thirty or so percent of children who died in infancy in those days?

How about helping infertile couples? Hmmm...

How about helping some of the less strong members with their testimonies? I mean a little extra shot of the HG wouldn't be out of the question would it?

Or, maybe, (I know this is pretty out there), God could have given Joseph Smith a revelation about germ theory? Think how many children's lives would have been saved.

Seriously, the "God needed to command Joseph Smith & co., to screw girls and women to raise up seed," excuse is just plain nonsense.

Joseph Smith thought it was a good excuse and seems many of his followers buy into it. Nothing new.

~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Rational justification for Polygamy?

Post by _beastie »

The female shortage that polygamy created was off-set by missionaries finding their future wives on their missions. This was apparently so common that, If I recall correctly, Heber C. Kimball chastised missionaries for picking the prettiest ones before bringing them back to Utah.

As far as theological justifications, I think that the idea was roughly that increase in wives and children equated an increase in glory in the celestial kingdom. God's glory is partly due to the fact that he has so many wives and children. So by increasing wives and children in this life, men were trying to get ahead in the race for glory in the celestial kingdom. It was about power, and seeing women and children more as reflections of glory and possessions. It smacks of narcissism. Narcissists view their spouses and children as reflections of their own "glory", and, of course, "damn" them if they don't measure up.

by the way, I think the theological justification came later. in my opinion, Joseph Smith was simply never the type of man who could be happy with one sexual partner, and was looking for a theological justification to do what he really wanted to do all along - have access to more females than Emma. I think that's why he was attracted to the idea of polygamy in the Bible - it appealed to a desire that was already there. If a man who was happy and content as a monogamous read the part about polygamy in the Old Testament, his first thought wouldn't be, "hey, I better ask God about this, because maybe he wants us to do it today, too!!" I know that believers like to pretend Joseph didn't really want to do it, that he was forced to do it by the sword-bearing angel. The uncomfortable reality is that Joseph practiced it with great enthusiasm and even recklessness. This was a man who enjoyed having rights to sexual access to just about any female he desired.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Pokatator
_Emeritus
Posts: 1417
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:38 pm

Re: Rational justification for Polygamy?

Post by _Pokatator »

The Nehor wrote:Being told that something was commanded but stopped is not a good reason to practice it.


Nehor, I understand your limitations.....you can't even live the command to marry one wife and make her happy......how could you be expected to live the command to have more than one wife and make them all unhappy.
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
bcspace
_The Nehor
_Emeritus
Posts: 11832
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am

Re: Rational justification for Polygamy?

Post by _The Nehor »

Pokatator wrote:
The Nehor wrote:Being told that something was commanded but stopped is not a good reason to practice it.


Nehor, I understand your limitations.....you can't even live the command to marry one wife and make her happy......how could you be expected to live the command to have more than one wife and make them all unhappy.


That's not what I said but thank you for distorting my answer into a personal insult.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_badseed
_Emeritus
Posts: 576
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 5:04 pm

Re: Rational justification for Polygamy?

Post by _badseed »

Just read Solemn Covenant by Carmon Hardy which deals mostly with Utah and post-manifesto polygamy. During these years there was no shortage of explanation given for the practice. It ranged from the oft heard and most simplistic, "God commanded it" to healthful benefits of polygamy vs. monogamy.

"God commanded it" is easy enough to say but hard to understand in that the revelation was recorded and made known to a small group in 1843 (some claimed to have known much earlier) BUT the practice was— according to some— to have started as early as the early 1830s. The 1843 revelation talks about the practice in terms of the sealing power but the Elijah didn't appear until 1836 so it's unclear how that would have worked. In any event, if we just go with God commanded polygamy, it must be admitted that the practice was important to God's kingdom. What other commandment can you think of that was enforced by an armed angel?

It was said in the Utah days that polygamists were more youthful and healthy than those who limited themselves to one wife. Offspring from plural marriage was said to be superior to that of monogamist as men weren't wasting their "vital fluids", as it were, on sex for pleasure, but instead it was focused on sex for procreation. Ironically, anti-polygamists in America at the time argued that offspring created by practicing the principle were inferior beings and sometimes implying they were even less than human.

In defense of the practice late 19th century/early 20th LDS also claimed the the practice kept society more moral. Men had/have a greater sex drive and so pairing them with more than one woman in marriage kept them from fornication and societal ills such as prostitution. Women wanted a provider and to care for children so according to the polygamist logic both men and women got what they naturally needed/wanted.

Many if not most understood the practice to be tied to the level of exaltation they received in the eternities as more children and wives in mortality equaled more posterity in the hereafter and thus a greater dominion. In fact many were convinced that plurality of wives was the form of marriage that God practiced and thereby populated His worlds. They practiced "patriarchal marriage" to do the works of Abraham and by doing so become like God.

The too many women argument is as far as I can see was never really used to justify the practice in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Church leader John A. Widtsoe spoke put against this theory in 1943.

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/Why.htm

The explanation that Joseph Smith, like many other powerful men, found a way to be with more women either for sexual or power reasons, makes the most sense to me. Did he create the practice to convince himself or his followers or the women? I don't know. I however do think sex and power were the main motivations behind it. You can see the same pattern repeated over and over through history.

The process that lead to ending the process was just as unclear. In fact what is considered the revelation (Official Declaration 1) to end practice today was not considered authoritative by virtually all of the leadership and at least a good portion of the membership despite the narrow approval in conference in 1890. Essentially it was a show put on for the US Government. It is clearly documented that from 1890 to 1910 there were still plural marriages approved and performed in the Church— and not just by renegade members or leaders. Eventually the leadership delegated the authority to lower leadership so they could truthfully say they were unaware of plural marriages while allowing them to continue. Only as monogamist came up in leadership and polygamist died off did the practice really end and become the red-headed step-child it is now (no offense meant to red-headed step kids).
Crawling around the evidence in order to maintain a testimony of the Book of Mormon.

http://www.ldsrevelations.com/blog
_DarkHelmet
_Emeritus
Posts: 5422
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:38 pm

Re: Rational justification for Polygamy?

Post by _DarkHelmet »

bcspace wrote:
In reading and listening to others about Polygamy in the LDS Church I can't come up with any rational or reasonable reason it was practiced.
As a commandment it falls off when we see Joseph Smith starting the practice before he has the authority to do so.

The excuse of 'too many women' falls apart when one looks at the population figures.

Was there any rational and reasonable reason for polygamy as practiced by the early LDS?


I've never seen the Jacob 2:30 reason given as indicative of "too many women". Rather I see it exactly as it says. To "raise up seed unto me". In other words, more children raised LDS.



But Joseph didn't have any kids (that we know about) with his plural wives.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
_DarkHelmet
_Emeritus
Posts: 5422
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:38 pm

Re: Rational justification for Polygamy?

Post by _DarkHelmet »

The Nehor wrote:God told us to do it.


Prove it.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Re: Rational justification for Polygamy?

Post by _truth dancer »

Hey Badseed,

Very nice post! :-) My following post is not suggesting you claim any of the assertions to which I respond. I'm responding to the claims and excuses I hear from those who support and justify polygamy.

A couple of thoughts...

defense of the practice late 19th century/early 20th LDS also claimed the the practice kept society more moral. Men had/have a greater sex drive and so pairing them with more than one woman in marriage kept them from fornication and societal ills such as prostitution. Women wanted a provider and to care for children so according to the polygamist logic both men and women got what they naturally needed/wanted.


Let's not forget the girls that were used as well. Fourteen and fifteen year old girls are children, not adults by any stretch. Think of those little girls kissing Warren Jeffs, for a visual. Disgusting.

I find the "logic" some LDS men (BY for an example) used to justify their affairs silly (and sick). So, if a married man has sex with prostitutes, and/or other girls and women, and secretly cheats on his wife it is wrong, but if the wife knows about the affairs and the guys are "sealed" to the girls and women, God is OK with it? Weird thinking, in my opinion. The dynamics are the same whether a man is is secretly visiting a prostitute, or whether he is openly engaging in sex outside his real marriage.

Another point... it is completely misleading for polygamous supporters to claim that polygamist men took care of their wives and families. Maybe BY and his wealthy and powerful cohorts gave their wives and children a home and food, but few polygamous men could provide for numerous families. I think the norm was more that women were basically single parents with little resources; doing their best to raise their children alone with little to no financial, emotional, physical, or sexual care and support from their husbands.

What is really sad is that a prostitute at least gets paid for her sexual use; wives of polygamous husbands get nothing, except an eternity of their hell.

As I have stated before, polygamy turns men into sperm donors, like an animal.

~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_William Schryver
_Emeritus
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:58 pm

Re: Rational justification for Polygamy?

Post by _William Schryver »

zzyzx wrote:In reading and listening to others about Polygamy in the LDS Church I can't come up with any rational or reasonable reason it was practiced.
As a commandment it falls off when we see Joseph Smith starting the practice before he has the authority to do so.

The excuse of 'too many women' falls apart when one looks at the population figures.

Was there any rational and reasonable reason for polygamy as practiced by the early LDS?

The rationale was simple: plural marriage was instituted (and quite strictly regulated, by the way) for the express purpose of greatly increasing the number of offspring of a select group of men.

How hard is that to understand?
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_karl61
_Emeritus
Posts: 2983
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:29 pm

Re: Rational justification for Polygamy?

Post by _karl61 »

William Schryver wrote:
zzyzx wrote:In reading and listening to others about Polygamy in the LDS Church I can't come up with any rational or reasonable reason it was practiced.
As a commandment it falls off when we see Joseph Smith starting the practice before he has the authority to do so.

The excuse of 'too many women' falls apart when one looks at the population figures.

Was there any rational and reasonable reason for polygamy as practiced by the early LDS?

The rationale was simple: plural marriage was instituted (and quite strictly regulated, by the way) for the express purpose of greatly increasing the number of offspring of a select group of men.

How hard is that to understand?


So where are the offspring of Joseph Smith?
I want to fly!
Post Reply