"This is NOT the place to ask questions"!

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_dblagent007
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Re: "This is NOT the place to ask questions"!

Post by _dblagent007 »

zzyzx wrote:The fact I and most of you have never had a kid kidnapped does not mean it does not happen. The fact I and most of you have never been hit by lightning does not mean it does not happen.

If my position was that nothing ever happens unless I witness it, you might have a point. But it's not.

I have already freely admitted some plausible scenarios that I have never witnessed. I just don't think a boycott enforced by revoking temple recommends is one of those.

Too many here are quick to label on a liar.

No comment.

Should I meet you in person I will deal with it then, up close, personal and final.

Final? What is that a death threat?

All I am saying is that your claim is so extraordinary that it needs to be verified through another source or dismissed as too far out there. It kind of has an Ed Decker ring to it.
_Morrissey
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Re: "This is NOT the place to ask questions"!

Post by _Morrissey »

zzyzx wrote:This morning in combined Relief Society/Priesthood it got ugly. I sat back and watched as it deteriorated. The lesson was Families sealed together for eternity. It brought up Women sealed to Joseph Smith, polygamy and then the s**t hit the fan. (this time I sat and kept quiet, a damn good thing as it turned out)

One High Priest who is studying Church History via home study asked about sealings and if Elijah had restored the Keys for sealing husband and wife or if Joseph had them already. (all this after a High Council talk about the evils of studying Church History, questioning leadership and obeying the council of leadership) The High counselor was in the meeting as this all happened.

First, most couldn't ID Elijah or what his mission was. A bit of explanation and then the concensus was Joseph got the sealing keys from him but no sealings until 1843. He than asked about Fannie Alger. Was questioned harshly about 'where do you get this crap'... and he replied 'LDS Church Genealogy website" and it got worse from there.

Two 'testified' he should't be asking questions like this. He replied asking 'where do I ask if not in an LDS Priesthood/Relief Society meeting? He did thank one sister who suggested some weeks ago after I asked similar stuff that he should 'google it'... and he told the group that is where he got the LDS site information on Joseph marrying Fannie before he had the Sealing Keys. Another jokingly suggested that 'maybe the 3 Nephites solemnized the marriage, that would make it OK'. Not a popular idea at all. Another suggested 'go home and pray about it and quit asking questions'. Then another came up with rambling stories that had nothing to do with anything and ended with 'this is not necessary to your salvation', and at that point the guy asking said 'It probably isn't, but it is a basic Gospel question on Priesthood authority, I can't get any information from SLC on it, the Seminary teacher doesn't have any answers, the BYU Church History course is what brought itup in the first place... and the only place I get any serious consideration is ,,, after Googling... from talking with Sandra Tanner. Why should I have to ask her basic questions rather than getting the information from Church Leadership?" At this point, shortly before the lesson ended, he walked out.

Then the Bishop finally stood up and said 'anyone who shops at his business is guilty of giving aid and comfort to the enemy and would not have a Temple Recommend issued or renewed. The High council representative stood up and seconded that and said 'This is NOT the place to ask questions! Come, listen, be taught and believe. Anything else will have you on the road to apostacy as this brother is. Follow the Bishops advice and don't do business with Apostates or you endanger your own salvation".

Now I was really glad I kept silent. I did go to him at home and told him what was said and told him I would be by his shop by Tuesday to contract with him for remodeling on our house in preparation to putting it on the market this coming year.(when we can finally move and get the hell out of Utah)

No one tells me who to do business with and this fine man is now in danger of losing his business completely for asking questions. His questions were fine, not at all the way I would ask. He just wanted to know what The Church actually believes on the subject.

Whaat Does one do when their study shows 'the lights may be on but no one is home' mentally in Church?



It is incidences like that that almost literally scream CULT!!!!

I cannot say whether this in fact happened, but I find it credible that it did. The censorship for asking troubling questions certainly jibes with my experience. I was, for example, hauled in by the Stake President simply for giving a member my copy of In Sacred Loneliness and explaining a bit my reaction. He told his wife, she called the Stake President, and, viola, I was called in and chastised for threatening members' testimonies. The Stake President's final parting shot to me was something like "some things we are simply better off not knowing."

My D&C teacher at BYU took me aside and told me I asked too many questions and that I needed to 'get with the program.' (And I was a fully believing member then.)

I've also seen all sorts of lunacy displayed by members over the years. So, while I have no reason to think the extreme nature of this story is representative of Mormon Inc. in general, I do think that elements of the story (particularly criticism/ostracization for excessive frankness, circle the wagons viciousness directed toward perceived disrupters/apostates, exhortations not to question too much, etc) fully consistent with my decades long experience with Mormon Inc.
_cinepro
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Re: "This is NOT the place to ask questions"!

Post by _cinepro »

zzyzx wrote:The fact I and most of you have never had a kid kidnapped does not mean it does not happen. The fact I and most of you have never been hit by lightning does not mean it does not happen.

Too many here are quick to label on a liar. Should I meet you in person I will deal with it then, up close, personal and final. You are no better than the trash I have met in Utah. You may not be LDS but you are the same damn people.


Can you do me a favor and PM me the name of the ward this happened in, or the name of the gentleman who was asking the questions?

I've never heard of anyone who was kidnapped or struck by lightning that wouldn't admit it if asked.
_beastie
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Re: "This is NOT the place to ask questions"!

Post by _beastie »

I think that it's important to distinguish between two questions:

1 - could this have possibly happened in an LDS ward?

2 - if this happened in an LDS ward, would the higher leadership approve of it?


The fact is that LDS leaders are not trained, and it's as possible for them to say and do stupid things on an impulse that it is possible that any other human being may say and do stupid things. Add to this the fact that any group that is dominant in a certain region, the way the LDS church is in Utah, tends to engage in behavior that would never be tolerated in a region in which they are not the dominant group. This is human nature.

So is it possible that this happened? Sure. I bet every single one of us can tell some story about some LDS bishop or other leader saying or doing something stupid. A story from my own past is from years ago - probably 20 or so years ago. The then-bishop in my parents' ward called them up, saying "This is Bishop so and so and I'd like to make an appointment to come talk to you and your wife". Of course my parents said yes,thinking that some sort of important calling was in the works. He showed up and presented a MLM spiel to them, trying to get their money. They were duly shocked.

Did it happen? I know for a fact it happened. Would church leadership approve of it? Most definitely not, but that didn't stop that particular bishop from doing it.

Look, bishops have been convicted of far worse things - we had one who was having an affair with the RS president - and others have been accused of even child abuse. And some of you are acted like it simply isn't possible this story happened? Please.

I do know from many exmormons that Utah Mormons often discriminate against people whom they perceive to be "apostates" or "enemies" of the church. It sounds to me like even those who insist this couldn't have happened admit as much. So why is it so impossible that a bishop who was raised in this environment mouthed off in a moment of frustration? You think the Holy Ghost prevents them from saying stupid things? Talk to Brigham Young about that!

Having said that, I doubt that higher church leadership would approve of this bishop's actions, although I guess he could make an argument that giving associating with this fellow even in business meant that one was associating with apostates. How does that temple question go now-a-days?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_TAK
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Re: "This is NOT the place to ask questions"!

Post by _TAK »

Beastie:
The then-bishop in my parents' ward called them up, saying "This is Bishop so and so and I'd like to make an appointment to come talk to you and your wife". Of course my parents said yes,thinking that some sort of important calling was in the works. He showed up and presented a MLM spiel to them, trying to get their money. They were duly shocked.


LOL.. I have posted this before but on my Mission, the Stake Mission President invited a couple we were teaching over for dinner. He tried to recruit them into his Amway group. That was the last we ever saw them..
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010


_________________
_dblagent007
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Re: "This is NOT the place to ask questions"!

Post by _dblagent007 »

I've seen a little bit of lunacy over the years and heard of a lot, but there is a line to the lunacy. The examples mentioned by Morrissey and Beastie generally fall in line with what I think could happen because I have heard them repeatedly and from a variety of different sources (that goes for Bishops molesting children and having affairs). However, there are a few reasons why zzixiy's claim is different.

For one, I have never even heard of an official Church sanctioned boycott of an apostate. I suspect that it could happen, but that alone seems highly unusual. If it happened, I suspect it would be more along the lines of Bishop so and so spreading the word quietly that we should not patronize so and so's business.

Second, the purported boycott in this story was not only sanctioned by the Bishop, it was announced in Church, which takes the story to a whole new level. This is where we are getting borderline on plausibility.

Third, the boycott seems a very harsh response to a member asking hard questions in a joint priesthood/relief society meeting. What is the likelihood, in all seriousness, that simply asking hard questions in a meeting will result in such a harsh penalty. Would any Bishop you have known do such a thing?

Fourth, not only is there a boycott, but it will be enforced by denying temple recommends to otherwise faithful members that violate it. Okay, this is going over the line of plausibility. It is just too crazy

Fifth, not only was the Bishop subject to a monumental lack of judgement, but a high councilor stands up and backstops the Bishops boycott and enforcement measures! And no one in the group says anything.

Now, if zzyzx gives Cinepro or someone else that has a history of trustworthiness, the name of the ward and he verifies the story, then that is something altogether different.
_beastie
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Re: "This is NOT the place to ask questions"!

Post by _beastie »

For one, I have never even heard of an official Church sanctioned boycott of an apostate. I suspect that it could happen, but that alone seems highly unusual. If it happened, I suspect it would be more along the lines of Bishop so and so spreading the word quietly that we should not patronize so and so's business.


I don’t think a bishop and a high counselor mouthing off in Sunday School out of frustration counts as an “official Church sanctioned boycott of an apostate.” You concede that it is part of the Utah culture to avoid supporting the businesses of apostates. Why is it so inconceivable that someone entrenched in this culture might achieve a position of local authority, and might, in a moment of frustration, actually say out loud what might just be normally whispered?

Second, the purported boycott in this story was not only sanctioned by the Bishop, it was announced in Church, which takes the story to a whole new level. This is where we are getting borderline on plausibility.


This doesn’t sound like a second point but a reiteration of the first point, so see above.

Third, the boycott seems a very harsh response to a member asking hard questions in a joint priesthood/relief society meeting. What is the likelihood, in all seriousness, that simply asking hard questions in a meeting will result in such a harsh penalty. Would any Bishop you have known do such a thing?


I agree with this, but it is possible that there is missing background information. This would be more plausible if the questioning member had already been a bit of a thorn in the bishop’s side and was getting a reputation as someone who was asking troublesome questions and causing distress among fellow members.

Fourth, not only is there a boycott, but it will be enforced by denying temple recommends to otherwise faithful members that violate it. Okay, this is going over the line of plausibility. It is just too crazy


I think it’s quite plausible that some members could interpret the temple interview question about associating with apostates in such a manner. Of course, it’s been a while since I’ve been in a temple recommend interview so I don’t really remember the exact phrasing, but do you deny that it could be interpreted by some in such a manner? Particularly in some rural Utah areas?

Fifth, not only was the Bishop subject to a monumental lack of judgement, but a high councilor stands up and backstops the Bishops boycott and enforcement measures! And no one in the group says anything.


I find it completely believable that no one in the group would challenge the bishop. Part of the LDS culture is to respect one’s leaders by virtue of position. If someone had a problem, I think the preferred route would be a private talk about the matter. I don’t find it any more implausible that a high counselor would agree with the Bishop than that the Bishop had the idea to begin with.

I think this boils down you not finding it plausible that leaders would say out loud what is normally whispered. I think it’s plausible, and given enough time and wards, inevitable. But I do agree that the story as offered does not provide enough details to meaningful judge its plausibility.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Jersey Girl
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Re: "This is NOT the place to ask questions"!

Post by _Jersey Girl »

agent
Now, if zzyzx gives Cinepro or someone else that has a history of trustworthiness, the name of the ward and he verifies the story, then that is something altogether different.


Are you saying that zzyzx should give cinepro (or some other person) the name of the ward so that cinepro (or some other person) can verify it? By what? Calling someone in the ward?

or

Are you saying that zzyzx should give cinepro (or some other person) the name of the ward and that giving the name of the ward would be the verification that the OP actually took place?

This is the person whom you advised on how to hide himself.

Do you think he's going to give anyone his location who might actually call someone in the ward?

Do you think that giving the location to another poster (without contacting someone in the ward) is verification?

Are you capable of thought?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Nevo
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Re: "This is NOT the place to ask questions"!

Post by _Nevo »

zzyzx wrote:All I will say on the Ward is Northern Utah, very Mormon polygamous history town with college kids in the area. I won't say more than that and won't ID too specifically. I post by emaling this to a friend out of State and he does the posting. This way jerks like Peterson can't get to me except through him and if Peterson or LDS, Inc showed up at his place they would probably end up as fish food or small plot worm farms somehow. He's trustworthy 100%, I know from our Military days about 40 years ago. Never once has he let me down, censored what I have asked him to post or been judgmental about the LDS stuff(even when he laughs his butt off at some of the stupidity that happens) He has encouraged me to move to his area where there is no LDS church within about 100 miles, the winters are cold and the goose hunting is excellent.

That old Army buddy of yours is awfully obliging. I checked your posting history and found posts at 2:48 am, 3:16 am, 4:00 am, etc. On September 4th, you had the poor guy posting at 3:16 am, 3:26 am, and 3:28 am!

zzyzx wrote:Most Sundays are not this nutty but lately we have had some doozies. One of the best was a Testimony meeting when one of Boyd K Packers old school teachers stood and bore hers about the dangers of polygamous inbreeding... using the mis-shapen heads & lust for power of the Packer clan in the area as exhibit #1. (she was led out quickly after she sat down and has not spoken since)

Gee, Boyd K. Packer's 85 years old now so that old bird's got to be around a 100, give or take a few years. Sorry to hear she's losing it.

I also enjoyed your anecdote about growing up in Texas and having the school principal get up on the roof and squirt a hose over you to show you what rain "looks like and feels like." That must have been like a Helen Keller moment for you.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: "This is NOT the place to ask questions"!

Post by _Jersey Girl »

liz3564 wrote:
dblagent wrote:If you have an opinion about the plausibility of the actions of a Bishop and a high councilor in a Sunday School class, it would help if you could show that you had actually been to a Sunday School class and/or interacted with a few Bishops and high councilors in a church capacity.


What makes you think she hasn't?

Simply because Jersey Girl is a non-member doesn't mean that she has never attended a Sunday School class.

Jersey Girl has been around these boards for a long time. I don't think I am amiss in repeating the story she has told publicly on more than one occasion.

Jersey Girl's initial interest in Mormonism occurred because of her in real life friendship with a Mormon neighbor. Although Jersey Girl is an active member of her own Church, she has attended meetings in our church as well, and has interacted with the LDS community both in real life and online for many years. She is certainly not someone who sets out to attack the Mormon Church, by any means. I enjoy her perspective, because it is fresh. She is able to observe things without being so close to it. Jersey Girl has not grown up in the LDS culture, but to claim that she is not familiar with it is an insult.


Correction: I am not currently an active member of any church.

I chose not to meet the demands for # of meetings attended, etc. because they have not a damn thing to do with the plausibility of the OP.

The demands are the equivalent of a TBM confronting an ex-Mo on their loss of testimony with "you probably never really had a testimony to begin with" as if their loss of testimony had more to do with the validity of their prior held testimony than it does the outcome of their investigation of church history.

Give me a break, people.

In this case it is assumed that a never can have no in real life knowledge of LDS culture or have attended any meetings/functions at the local Ward or Stake. In other words, I'm posting on an LDS board just for the flippin' hell of it.

Again. Give me a break.
:rolleyes:
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
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