I quit the Church!!!

[_JohnStuartMill]

I am torn on this issue about Paul's rhetoric. I mean, I think it is legitimate to criticize people who avow certain beliefs and then do not live up to them, although, heck, most of us do it. On the other hand, a blanket statement that makes out the Mormon leadership to be nothing but a bunch of greedy old bastards is going way too far, imho. If they were only out for money, then presumably they would find more lucrative employ. I would instead suggest that they receive great satisfaction doing what they do, so much so that they are willing to forego the possibility of more profit to serve the Church.

This.

But also keep in mind that Paul has been pretty consistent in wishing that the GAs were more blue-collar, so it's odd to explain his rhetoric as more ex-Mormon boilerplate.

[_Ray A]

I don't mean a 'new order Mormon' sort of middle way. I am just saying that one does not need to be TBM to defend the lds chruch against claims that it is false. And one does not need to be a forming at the mouth exmormon either.

I take what good I see in Mormonism. Sorry for my frequent references as a cab driver, but I'd rather have a Mormon in my cab than some drunken a-hole, and I have no doubt that the Mormon will pay his/her fare. That's about the extent, as an example, of the "good" that I see in Mormonism. It makes many people better. And I can easily live with that.

Paul O's vocabulary is coming right out of the exmormon.org handbook. Calling the GA's money grubbing is an example of this. The GAs are just like all Mormons: they believe and have faith that it is all true. They just happen to have the callings that they do. But are they money grubbing? No, I don't think so. But calling them so is certainly one way to dehumanize them all. And that is what one needs to do if one feels one at war or if one has even changed sides. But that doesn't mean that it is reality.

I don't think Paul is that far off the mark. There are lots and lots of people living "cushy" lives at tithe-payers' expense. You got the CES, the GAs, and all of those empolyed at tithe-payers' expense, the people who get up at 5am and come home exhausted at 7pm, who will never have the opportunity to be "employed by the Church".

I once had a bishop who joked about Mormons "working in sheltered workshops" and protected employment. But you don't have to worry about that, since, I assume, you don't pay tithing.

And to think that all of this started with a man of whom it was said, "he hath not where to lay his head".

Maybe that was a myth too. Because one should be skeptical of all claims religious claims.

Mormonism has become a corporation of hypocritical businessmen and apologists as devoid of "the Spirit of Christ" as those who sought young girls to comfort them in lieu of their older wives. It has all been based on "carnal desires" from the time Joseph sought out Fanny.

Now what needs to happen in the Church is a revolution -where they actually begin to apply the universal ideals of Christianity.

You are pecking at the cream, while you don't see that the cake it decorates is rotten to the core.

[_Trevor]

This.

But also keep in mind that Paul has been pretty consistent in wishing that the GAs were more blue-collar, so it's odd to explain his rhetoric as more ex-Mormon boilerplate.

I think it is even more interesting to watch how often insider criticism so easily leads to this--becoming an outsider.

It is not that I blame Paul. I would love for people to live up to their ideals. In a way I envy the fact that he still seems to expect that they could.

[_Paul Osborne]

I am torn on this issue about Paul's rhetoric. I mean, I think it is legitimate to criticize people who avow certain beliefs and then do not live up to them, although, heck, most of us do it. On the other hand, a blanket statement that makes out the Mormon leadership to be nothing but a bunch of greedy old bastards is going way too far, imho. If they were only out for money, then presumably they would find more lucrative employ. I would instead suggest that they receive great satisfaction doing what they do, so much so that they are willing to forego the possibility of more profit to serve the Church.

There are no blue collar working men in the highest positions of the church. You cannot be a blue collar man and become a prophet or apostle in our day because the white collar man is keeping the blue collar man down. They want everyone to believe that they are better and that their skills are what qualify them to lead the church. They enjoy great power and position -- that is worth just as much as money. Money and power can become intoxicating and make for a great reward for those who join the club of General Authority white collar men. These guys would have looked at Jesus and Peter as if they were dumb blue collar working men who need to go upgrade their employment status before even thinking about running a church.

It's the Church of Jesus Christ of White-Collar-Run Saints. It is run by white collar men.

Paul O

[_bcspace]

Paul,

When you get to the judgement bar, call me as a witness and I will testify of the good which you formerly did on behalf of the Church.

Same goes for Kevin Graham.

Brian

[_Trevor]

It's the Church of Jesus Christ of White-Collar-Run Saints. It is run by white collar men.

Paul O

This is exactly what I mean. Sure, I am sympathetic. This used to eat at me too. Then, I realized that people are people. We can wish for them to be something other than what they are all we want, but that won't make it happen.

The LDS Church is a corporation run by corporate types. Sure, you could switch these guys out for ditch-diggers and carpenters, but, then it would no longer be the successful enterprise it is. And, people worship at the cult of success long before they worship at the feet of Jesus.

[_Gazelam]

Paul,
I keep flip flopping over whether to pity you or feel disgust towards you. You know what you are saying is wrong. I don't know what your trying to justify, your failed marriage, your homosexual mother, your masturbation. it doesent matter. Its empty and sad rhetoric. Stop.

Gaz

[_bcspace]

Paul,

When you get to the judgement bar, call me as a witness and I will testify of the good which you formerly did on behalf of the Church.

Same goes for Kevin Graham.

Brian

[just thought I'd repeat this so it's near the top of a page]

[_Trevor]

Paul,
I keep flip flopping over whether to pity you or feel disgust towards you. You know what you are saying is wrong. I don't know what your trying to justify, your failed marriage, your homosexual mother, your masturbation. it doesent matter. Its empty and sad rhetoric. Stop.

Gazelam

And what are you trying to justify Gaz? Nothing? I doubt it.

Cut this crap about your disgust. If you want to reach out to Paul, that is certainly not the way to go about it.

[_Paul Osborne]

Paul,

When you get to the judgement bar, call me as a witness and I will testify of the good which you formerly did on behalf of the Church.

Same goes for Kevin Graham.

Brian

Testimony? What is a testimony other than your opinion? Am I a dog eating vomit? No, I'm made free and my eyes are open. I've come out of the fog and feel joy. JOY!

Now, since you mentioned the judgement bar, I guess you have judged me for forsaking God. Is that right?

Paul O