Why I left the LDS Church (Warning: *LONG*)

[_Gadianton Plumber]

But that's not what they were attesting to. They said they saw the metal plates, right? Is it beyond imaginable that Joseph Smith could have made metal plates? I wonder why the witnesses are cited as irrefutable evidence of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon if all they are claiming is that they saw metal plates, gold in appearance? Why is it convincing to you, whyme?

And then we have the three witnesses who saw the angel and the plates. No one ever denied their testimony even though both Oliver and David had good reason to do so. Most of the witnesses took their testimony to their death and gave it again on their deathbed.

Joseph must have had a knack for doing all this in secret away from Emma and family. Difficult to do. The making of metal plates may be a noisey prospect and easy to discover. And then if we have sidney involved, the idea becomes even more absurd.

OK, so we are down to three witnesses. These three people said they saw angels, right? They also never went back on their word, right? If I could show you a similar attestation of something else that is not true, would that discount these three?

I will cite if you need anything.

Seven people attested that Solomon Spaulding told them he was the author of the Book of Mormon.

Many others attested that they witnessed similar occurrences support the prophetic mantle of Jesse Strang, including some of the original witnesses of the Book of Mormon.

Do these witness mean Strang is a true prophet, did Spaulding really write the Book of Mormon, or are witness sometimes unreliable?

Does this discount the original 3?

[_why me]

Is this a joke? So here we have a second hand story found in Naked Truths about Mormonism? Interesting but...means nothing. Nice to be privy to secret activities....that may or may not have happened.

Which part do you think is a joke?

1. Oliver Cowdery was a coppersmith
2. Oliver Cowdery also was associated with the printing business
3. Printing businesses of that day used engraved copper printing plates
4. Copper can be easily confused with gold

All of these things are verified.

And at the time of Joseph and Oliver was it known that Oliver had a background in copper? If so, it didn't seem to matter to the people involved. The other 10 witnesses seemed not to give a hoot. The likelihood that all the witnesses would be duped would be a long shot to be sure. The more people involved the probability of failure grows. Plus we have Martin and David testifying to an angel appearing. Hard for Oliver to arrange an angel. But anyway, nice try beastie.

Of course 11 witnesses never denying what they saw does not prove the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is faith based and not conclusive evidence based. Religion is always going to be faith based.

And we need to remember that Oliver's wife would have needed to be in on it. And if not, Oliver took her and his child to the Mormon camp and he was reinstated into the LDS church and he gave his testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon as he did on other occasions.

Oliver making the plates does not add up.

[_beastie]

You're nothing if not predictable, whyme. The possibility that a coppersmith who worked in the printing business could have possibly used copper printing plates to craft a "book" is more outlandish than disappearing gold plates delivered by an angel.

I showed you visionary claims made by other people in the time period. Do you accept their claims, as well? After all, they said it happened, so it must have happened.

[_mentalgymnast]

The Godmakers is indeed an unimpressive work.

Let's hope this isn't the anti-mormon book Shades is referring to.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Do you consider ALL sources critical of the church reliable?

Before we can proceed, I must ask the following counter-question:

Do you consider ANY source critical of the church [to be] reliable?

The three cut and pastes that I took out of your story. Where did you find the information contained therein, especially the bolded out sections? In a reliable source? If so, what was it?

You still haven't answered my question.

And what was the name of the anti-mormon book you're referring to that is of little or no consequence?

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Oh, and by the way Shades, it is fairly obvious that some works/books critical of the church would be more reliable than others. I think we can agree that Decker's book is "less than impressive." My concern is whether or not your initial post relied wholly on reliable sources or at times on less than reliable sources.

We don't know because you didn't say.

Regards,
MG

[_Dr. Shades]

My concern is whether or not your initial post relied wholly on reliable sources or at times on less than reliable sources.

We don't know because you didn't say.

My initial post relied wholly on reliable sources.

[_beastie]

The three cut and pastes that I took out of your story. Where did you find the information contained therein, especially the bolded out sections? In a reliable source? If so, what was it?

You still haven't answered my question.

And what was the name of the anti-mormon book you're referring to that is of little or no consequence?

This is what is frustrating about being in the position of having to defend the faith, isn't it, MG? All you can do is to pick a few little details and hope to make the case of unreliable sources.

The fact is that one doesn't have to read a single piece of anti-mormon literature to discover more than enough issues to justify a loss of faith. Just substitute any one of a seemingly endless number of controversies instead of the one you're questioning - instead of the Hyde pregnancy, use the fact that married Sylvia Sessions claimed her daughter, Josephina, was Joseph Smith' offspring. Same difference, and there's no quibbling about that one.

[_TAK]

WME

I don't know...being shown by a supernatural power may suffice. But if this were all a fraud, we will need to introduce a metal smith to hatch the plates with a gold appearance.

Why? Nobody saw or handled gold plates with natural eyes... only in a spiritual sense.. Go read Grant Palmers book.

[_Gadianton Plumber]

WhyME:

I am still waiting for your answers to my questions re: witnesses.