Gene Cook-Mick Jagger airplaine conversation

[_Gadianton]

I just read the talk on lightplanet. There is a link there to an audio version for you hard core types.

Dr. Shades, please read this talk and take note of Cook's sermon on the theory of evolution to jagger, how believing in it directly leads to denying God and any personal moral responsibility. Quite the Chapel Mormon eh?

Is it true? Here's what I think. Cook is at the airport, they are selling Rolling Stone magazine, he's curious and picks one up. This issue has an article about Mick. It has a picture of him in the article, Cook takes note of what he sees as a wasted appearance. The article discusses Mick's recent video shot in mexico. Mick talks about his moral philosophies, rebellion and so on. I'm pretty sure I've heard of a magazine article later than this one would be where Mick brags about the whole "rock music is rebellion, not going anywhere", "kids should go out and have sex". He's not shy. It mentions his three kids from three marriages. Cook becomes infuriated and begins fantasizing on the plane about telling Jagger a thing or two. A few years later, it's history.

So if anyone is a big Stones fan and collects articles, check for one that mentions all the things Cook mentioned in a single article. I personally think the Rolling Stones suck. I'm surprised Peterson would listen to such crap.

[_Ray A]

From the Melbourne broadsheet The Age (July 26, 2003):

I particularly like these excerpts from an address by Mormon Elder Gene R. Cook, entitled A Conversation With Mick Jagger. According to Gene, he ended up sitting next to Mick on a flight from Mexico to the US (Mick must have been so pleased to find out he was going to be bailed up by a Mormon for two and a half hours). Not being one to waste an opportunity, the fearless Mormon laid it on the line to Mick, asking him what he thought the effect of his music was on impressionable youngsters.

"This is a direct quote, brothers and sisters," writes Gene. "He said, 'Our music is calculated to drive the kids to sex.' I'm sure I had a real look of shock on my face in receiving such a bold response. He quickly added, 'Well, it's not my fault what they do. That's up to them. I'm just making a lot of money'."

Suffice to say that, according to Gene, relations deteriorated somewhat during the rest of the flight, although at least Mick had the good grace not to demand a seat in the No Mormons section.

The journalist was just "taking the Mickey out of Cook", so to speak.

[_Doctor Scratch]

That was a very intriguing thread, and I'm bummed that the moderators closed it. I very much admire Dr. ToGo's earnestness and questing for the truth. It's obvious that the apologists posting on the thread don't really care about that sort of thing very much. I think, too, that Dr. ToGo was right on the money in his OP:

I am troubled by the tale told by Elder Gene R. Cook (now, GA emeritus) about a conversation on an airplane with Mick Jagger. Most of the time when stories of this type are told, the name of the person who acts in an unflattering way is withheld. A category description is, instead, used. For example, "rock star" rather than "Mick Jagger." Since Elder Cook used Mick Jagger's name, if it is untrue Elder Cook has borne false witness against another human being. This is venal in a way that Paul H. Dunn's made-up stories were not, as I cannot think of one where Dunn named someone specifically in a disparaging way.

It is not merely an innocent exaggeration to make the point that rock music can have a deleterious effect on the listener. Here, another human being is implicated by name, and attributed with saying his artistic work is 'designed to drive the kids to sex.'

For these reasons, it seems that verification that Jagger was on the flight would be of interest to earnest truth seekers, as many of the posters here.

It's true: Elder Cook was clearly using smear tactics. This is pretty obvious, and thus it's strange that DCP would try to cover up the situation:

I'm absolutely shocked -- shocked, I tell you -- that anybody could have ever publicly suggested that Sir Michael Philip "Mick" Jagger is less than completely virtuous and devoted to principles of chastity and monogamy.

I don't believe I've ever heard anybody impugn his character on this subject before, and, surely, such allegations cannot possibly be true.

For a profile of Sir Michael that vividly illustrates his fidelity to old-fashioned family values, see the subsection entitled "Personal Life" at

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Mick_Jagger

This cries out for a full investigation! A man's public reputation for morality and virtue is at stake!

This is sophistry. The real impugning of Jagger isn't coming from the "drive the kids to sex" bit; that much is evident in the structure of Cook's talk. (And I would imagine that DCP knows this.) The talk is structured so that Cook, in his role as self-appointed hero and protagonist, gets to throw down and embarrass this swaggering rock star. The dramatic and emotional climax of the talk is this:

I've only been mad at two investigators in my life where I kind of got upset, and he was one of them. As we proceeded in the discussion, he probably had four or five alcoholic drinks. As you know, when one does that one tends to be a little looser in the way he talks and thinks. Finally, in a rather loud voice towards the end of our discussion, he said something like, "Furthermore, about your Book of Mormon-- your Book of Mormon is a lie, and any man that believes it is a liar." He said it in such a way that most people nearby could hear it. That really did upset me. I thought to myself, here's a man who is representing evil and trying to announce it now to the whole cabin to try to make them feel that the Book of Mormon is not true.

I then felt impressed to say something like, "Well, Mick, you're mighty fortunate today, mighty fortunate." He said, "What are you talking about?" And I said, "Because you're sitting next to a servant of the Lord who plans on correcting what you just said." He then said, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, you're really lucky. I just happen to have a Book of Mormon right here in my briefcase," and I pulled out a Book of Mormon and put it in his lap. I told him something to this effect, "Mick, this book has changed my life. I love the Book of Mormon. And I have read it many, many times. It is the greatest book, in my mind, on the face of the earth. In my view it has changed me, it has made me a better man. You say it's a lie. I must have missed that part. Show me."

My young friends, there was just total, dead silence. He didn't say a word. I finally said, "Well, maybe you were offended by the part where Lehi told his sons to be honest men or where he taught them to rely upon the Lord and have faith in God. Maybe you were offended when Alma told his boy, Coriantumr, that he had broken the law of chastity and then he told him what he had to do to correct it. Maybe that offended you. Or maybe it was the part when Christ came to America. Or maybe it really bothered you when he said that one is to love his wife with all his heart and not commit adultery. Maybe that offended you." I carried on a little bit with him that way, and of course again he said nothing. I finally said, "Well, if you can't show me a chapter, then at least show me a page, or maybe a paragraph will do. That would be all right. Just show me one paragraph." And again, brothers and sisters, dead silence. I finally said, "Well, then how about a line, or one word."

I finally bore my testimony to him and said something like, "My friend, the lie is not in the Book of Mormon. The lie is in you. And I bear witness to you in the name of the Lord that if you don't turn your life around, you'll be going to hell. The devil himself will come and get hold of you." I bore my testimony to him as strongly as I could about what he was doing, that it was not right, and that it was not according to the Lord's plan.

The story is designed to paint Jagger in a negative light by way of Cook's spiritual gifts. Jagger is supposed to be the savvy and worldly rock star, and yet here is humble Elder Cook, a meager servant of the Lord, who comes and and completely pwns Jagger thanks to the power of his testimony. And seriously---what is more likely to harm Jagger's reputation: the notion that the songs mention sex, and that Jagger is proud of it, or the alleged fact that he was checkmated into silence by an LDS General Authority? The real reason that apologists want to believe in Elder Cook's tale is that it provides a model for what they themselves hope to accomplish. Their entire existence revolves around trying to make the critics look bad.

This is to say nothing of Elder Cook's fundamentally stupid challenge. (It reminds me of Elder Packer's "Describe the taste of salt" nonsense.) He sets Jagger up to function as a straw man ("he probably had four or five alcoholic drinks"---careful! Better not tell your LDS audience that! They might think you were picking on somebody weaker than you!) and the challenge he throws down is pretty stupid. Presumably, Jagger meant that it was a "lie" in the sense that Joseph Smith made it up, or it wasn't divine in the way that it and its supports purport it to be, etc. Honestly, what did Cook expect? That Jagger would flip over to the material plagiarized from the Bible? That he would mention Nephi donning the disguise, thus "lying" by way of his appearance?

This next bit in the talk was very strange, I thought, and it further illustrates the two-headedness at the heart of Mopologetics:

I felt very emotionally involved when I bore my testimony because I thought to myself, "Here I am going about the earth trying to strengthen young people, trying to make them better and turn them to the Lord. And men like this are coming around right behind me trying to tear it all down, destroying the family, and destroying their reliance on God. I bore a very fervent testimony to him and told him that I would be a witness that I had at least given him "the word." Well, he calmed down quite a bit in that encounter and didn't say any more. That at least quieted him down so he didn't continue in the vein he was in.

Huh? Notice that Cook begins the paragraph by telling us that it was *he* who was "emotionally involved," but this wraps up with Jagger being the one who was unruly, with Cook's testimony magically "calming" him down! This is yet another attempt by a Mopologetic-minded individual to cover up his own anger and sense of frustration.

In the end, it seems clear that the story is really just meant to elevate Elder Cook's status in the eyes of the Saints. It's obvious that he wants to paint himself as a kind of Mormon Jedi Knight whose mastery of the Force allows him to defeat the evil of rock music.

But, to return to my initial point: I agree with ToGo that it was inappropriate for Cook to behave in this manner, and I think that the talk is seriously out of line, and that it deserves our wholehearted condemnation. That prominent apologists like DCP would defend an unverified story like this says a lot about them and their notion of morality and ethics.

Oh, and by the way, Prof. P.:

I simply don't see anything in this story, at the moment, to justify a sense of outrage or injustice.

And I say this as somebody who attended his first Stones concert before he was able to drive.

[/quote]

So what? You told us a while back that you were a semi-apostate during this period of your life, so this really does nothing to up your Mormon Hipster quotient. You can't have it both ways, after all: either you're cool and down with The Beatles and the Stones, or you agree with Elder Cook that "there is music of the Lord and there is music of the devil."

Finally: I agree with John Larsen that it is inappropriate for the Brethren and other Church representatives (including employees of the Maxwell Institute) to fly first- or business-class on the tithe-payers' nickel and dime. People who do this are crapping on the Widow's mite.

[_Doctor Scratch]

As for the mod's comment:

Do not come on here and make unsubstantiated accusations. This is a warning and suggest you not do it again.

I think it is Cook who should be called to substantiate his story. He's telling millions (?) of Mormons about the depravity of Jagger, and whether it's true of not is beside the point. The point is whether he's telling the full truth about his encounter and what was said.

I agree, Ray. Cook could have very easily made a more generic and generic point about the evils of rock music, just as plenty other General Authorities have done over the years. The inclusion of Jagger as the antagonist in the story makes me think that Cook has some kind of personal vendetta against Mick. He even says that Jagger is one of only two investigators (Jagger is an "investigator?" lol) who've managed to make him "mad". Clearly, Cook was envious of Jagger's power.

[_Ray A]

I agree, Ray. Cook could have very easily made a more generic and generic point about the evils of rock music, just as plenty other General Authorities have done over the years. The inclusion of Jagger as the antagonist in the story makes me think that Cook has some kind of personal vendetta against Mick. He even says that Jagger is one of only two investigators (Jagger is an "investigator?" lol) who've managed to make him "mad". Clearly, Cook was envious of Jagger's power.

If the conversation did occur I think Jagger was clearly pulling Cook's leg with sarcasm, and viewed him as some kind of nerd or religious nut. Cook's attempt to make mileage out of this, however, could eventually come back and bite him on the butt.

Also, since Cook is apparently a couple of years older than Jagger, I find it difficult to believe he didn't know who Jagger was. Was his Mormon cocoon that deep? Possible, but unlikely, I think. Some other things in his story don't add up, in my opinion.

[_Danna]

Ages ago there was a thread on RFM (If I recall correctly) where someone posted a link to a Fax(?) from an assistant to Sir Mick, to an ex-mo asking about meeting Cook. Off the top of my head it looked like a form letter that a rockstar might send out to annoying fans, along the lines of "Mr Jagger goes to lots of places and meets lots of people, he does not recall this particular incident"

I can't find it with google though. I suspect any number of teenage girls have received similar letters.

Maybe someone around knows his ex-mo girlfriend and could pass the question along.

[_bcspace]

"I was present with a large group of missionaries in California in the 80's during one of the times he told it."

Damn, if the space kadet was there for the story... that proves it is all true.

It proves there is more than one person willing to testify to the fact that he told the story.

[_harmony]

It proves there is more than one person willing to testify to the fact that he told the story.

I have no doubt that Elder Cook told the story. What I doubt is that the real Mick Jagger was in any way connected with it.

Perhaps we should call him Elder Paul Dunn Cook?

[_Paul Osborne]

Perhaps we should call him Elder Paul Dunn Cook?

It is true that Dunn was a liar. I say again, the General Authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Paul H. Dunn, was a liar!

He paid a heavy price for his lies.

Paul O

[_Yong Xi]

It proves there is more than one person willing to testify to the fact that he told the story.

I have no doubt that Elder Cook told the story. What I doubt is that the real Mick Jagger was in any way connected with it.

Perhaps we should call him Elder Paul Dunn Cook?

This story is obviously a lie. If Paul Dunn believed Gene Cook had talked to Mick Jagger, Paul H. would have talked to John Lennon. I don't remember Elder Dunn making that claim.