Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Gadianton Plumber wrote:OK, new direction. Am I being unreasonable in rejecting Mormons as Christians?


You are mixing up arguments, that's what you're doing.

The argument should be "Is Mormonism Christianity?"

NOT

Mormons aren't Christians.

I hold to the position that Mormonism most certainly is NOT Christianity but that Mormon's can definitely be Christians.
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_MsJack
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Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _MsJack »

Here is my take on the matter:

Mormonism is about as Christian as Christianity is Jewish.

If I went down to Congregation B'nai Tikvah near my house and said, "Shalom! I'm here to worship with you. I'm Jewish, too. I believe Moses was a prophet of God, I believe YHWH is the only true God and Lord over creation, and I believe the Law, the Prophets and the Writings are the inspired Word of God. And by the way, I'm a student at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School," they would look at me like I was insane.

All of the things I just listed are true. I do believe Moses was a prophet of God, I do believe YHWH is the only true God and Lord over creation, and I do believe the Law-Prophets-Writings (Jewish terminology for the Old Testament) are the inspired Word of God. Hell, I even speak some modern Hebrew, which a lot of Jews these days don't even do. However, as a Christian, I have re-interpreted and added to what it means to believe in all of those things to the extent that I am now best categorized as a member of another religion. For example, when Christians say that they believe in the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one"), Jews usually respond that this is perfect nonsense; one cannot believe that YHWH is three and one at the same time. If you follow Christian theology though, it's not really that Christians are non-Jewish. They're supra-Jewish. They're the true Jews. They're the next step that Judaism should have evolved to but didn't.

And so it is with Mormonism. It is not that Mormons do not believe in the divinity and atonement of Jesus Christ, the Bible, and a triune Godhead. They most certainly do. However, they have re-interpreted and added to what it means to believe in these things to the extent that they are best categorized as another religion. It's not so much that they're non-Christian as that they're supra-Christian. According to them, they're the true Christians. They're the next step that Christianity should have evolved into but didn't.

I have little problem with letting Mormons call themselves Christians. I believe the matter is polemical and emotionally-charged in nature, and that too many evangelical Christians are spending their time arguing over the matter instead of discussing more important things. I also believe that Mormonism could reform into a religion that fits better under the umbrella of what Christianity is. We'll see where it goes.

Gadianton Plumber wrote:Is there a point where a faith is not Christian?

In practical terms, a very strong indicator of problematic doctrine is when a faith completely rejects the baptisms of other Christian churches. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a single church which mandates that other Christians get re-baptized upon conversion that does not deviate from traditional Christianity in major ways. Other than the landmarkist controversy among the Baptists, that is.

Please note that currently both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox traditions will accept the baptisms of Christians from other Trinitarian traditions.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (?????????) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_beastie
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Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _beastie »

It is not slight theology that divides the Church from the rest, it is much more.


Theology isn’t slight, I hope that I haven’t insinuated as much when trying to distinguish between theological disputes and the more generic question of Christianity. Theology is significant. Theology defines who man is and what God is. There are significant and serious differences on these points within the larger Christian community.

Jersey Girl:
Joseph Smith (arguably) changed the nature of not just God but also of man.

Does the LDS concept of God or man, or God's relationship to man differ from that of other Christian denominations?

If it differs, can Mormonism rightly be described as a Christian religion?


Yes, it does differ from mainstream Christian denominations, but does it differ any more than the other debates about the nature of man (fallen from birth and hence prone to evil or not) and the nature of God (triniterianism versus other conceptions of the godhead). If these distinctions do not exclude other Christian faiths from being called “Christian”, why should it exclude Mormonism?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_thews
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Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _thews »


A typical Mormon response, which is to link an entire site to make a claim. Your links will delve deep into triagulated logic in order to make all the circular reasoning make sense. If you have a point to make, I suggest you make it and not send me off on a goose chase through the Mormon jungle of distortion to see the point you claim you're making.

This post is exactly why it is a total waste of time to discuss this.


So while you cry foul and attempt to redefine what "Mormon" stands for, "Christians" are supposed to be all in agreement that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God? Aren't you one of the types that acknowledges Joseph Smith and his magic rocks in his hat along with marrying 14 and 15 year old girls is wrong, but somehow Mormonism is still true? What's a waste of time is the redefinition of words. Christians are not Mormons, and Mormons are not Christians... they're Mormons. What the "Saints" had to say about Christianity is more relevant than what Mormons have morphed into.

Thews, do you realize the historical context of the quotes you think trump some sort of position for you? Do you realize the rhetoric was in the context by those who made the comments that the LDS Church was the only true Christianity and the rest were apostate and corrupt?


I don't have to rationalize things to make them fit the times I live in. If it’s God’s word, it’ll be true now and stand forever. If it’s not God’s word, like in Mormonism where God changes his mind (against what the bible states), then it has to change. You need to statements made by the so-called “saints” to change to morph Mormonism into Christianity. Christians believe Joseph Smith and Mormon doctrine is from a false prophet of God… only “Mormons” believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God; it’s that simple.

The Mormon leaders were putting down what they thought was FALSE Christianity while believing they had true Christianity. They were not saying that LDS were not Christian.


This is what you want to believe now… it’s not what they said. Brigham Young taught that Adam was God, but you discount that don’t you? …somehow still holding onto the believe that BY talked to God, as did Joseph Smith? It’s all or nothing and the statements made by your “Mormon” prophets are in fact “Mormon” and not Christian. Only “Mormons” believe Joseph Smith and his false prophecies, occult magic, polygamy/polyandry, Masonic rituals, etc., are from God …Christians reject it …all Christians reject Mormon doctrine.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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_beastie
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Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _beastie »

Please note that currently both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox traditions will accept the baptisms of Christians from other Trinitarian traditions.


Good points, Jack, but I wanted to ask you the same question I asked Jersey Girl and GP:

Are only trinitarians Christians?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Jersey Girl:
Joseph Smith (arguably) changed the nature of not just God but also of man.

Does the LDS concept of God or man, or God's relationship to man differ from that of other Christian denominations?

If it differs, can Mormonism rightly be described as a Christian religion?


beastie:
Yes, it does differ from mainstream Christian denominations, but does it differ any more than the other debates about the nature of man (fallen from birth and hence prone to evil or not) and the nature of God (triniterianism versus other conceptions of the godhead). If these distinctions do not exclude other Christian faiths from being called “Christian”, why should it exclude Mormonism?



You misunderstand what I mean by the "nature of man" beastie and "God's relationship to man".

I cannot think of a single Christian denomination that teaches that man can become what God is.

If you know of one, please post it.
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_richardMdBorn
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Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _richardMdBorn »

Bridget Jack Meyers wrote:And so it is with Mormonism. It is not that Mormons do not believe in the divinity and atonement of Jesus Christ, the Bible, and a triune Godhead. They most certainly do. However, they have re-interpreted and added to what it means to believe in these things to the extent that they are best categorized as another religion. It's not so much that they're non-Christian as that they're supra-Christian. According to them, they're the true Christians. They're the next step that Christianity should have evolved into but didn't.
The problem here is that the LDS have much in common with the paganism which was the opponent of OT Judaism and the early Church. Thus, in many ways they are a throw back to an earlier pagan religion with some Christian elements added.
_beastie
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Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _beastie »

You misunderstand what I mean by the "nature of man" beastie and "God's relationship to man".

I cannot think of a single Christian denomination that teaches that man can become what God is.

If you know of one, please post it.


I don't know of any other, either.

I didn't misunderstood. I'm trying to show that there are serious divisions within the larger Christian community that have to do with the nature of the godhead and the nature of mankind. Just how do you decide which of these divisions merit a faith being excluded from being called "Christian"? If not agreeing on the nature of the godhead isn't reason enough to exclude a faith, why would this be reason enough to exclude Mormonism?

I want to emphasize, again, that these distinctions obviously make Mormonism non-mainstream. But do these distinctions make Mormonism non-Christian?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _beastie »

And so it is with Mormonism. It is not that Mormons do not believe in the divinity and atonement of Jesus Christ, the Bible, and a triune Godhead. They most certainly do. However, they have re-interpreted and added to what it means to believe in these things to the extent that they are best categorized as another religion. It's not so much that they're non-Christian as that they're supra-Christian. According to them, they're the true Christians. They're the next step that Christianity should have evolved into but didn't.


I’ve read this argument before, and it is probably the best one I’ve seen, but it still doesn’t convince me that Mormonism ought not to be called Christian. Why is it not sufficient to simply recognize that they are not mainstream Christians?

Don’t all Christian religions interpret the Bible, the nature of Jesus, and the godhead in various ways? At what point does it become “another religion”? Where is the theological line drawn?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Gadianton Plumber

Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _Gadianton Plumber »

beastie wrote:
And so it is with Mormonism. It is not that Mormons do not believe in the divinity and atonement of Jesus Christ, the Bible, and a triune Godhead. They most certainly do. However, they have re-interpreted and added to what it means to believe in these things to the extent that they are best categorized as another religion. It's not so much that they're non-Christian as that they're supra-Christian. According to them, they're the true Christians. They're the next step that Christianity should have evolved into but didn't.


I’ve read this argument before, and it is probably the best one I’ve seen, but it still doesn’t convince me that Mormonism ought not to be called Christian. Why is it not sufficient to simply recognize that they are not mainstream Christians?

Don’t all Christian religions interpret the Bible, the nature of Jesus, and the godhead in various ways? At what point does it become “another religion”? Where is the theological line drawn?

The MPH effect, perhaps?
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