Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

[_Calculus Crusader]

Do you really think you know enough about primitive Christianity - preCatholicism - to make judgments about what trivializes Jesus, about what diverges from "real" Christianity? Scholars have studied this topic for centuries without being able to come to an agreement on that particular issue. They can't even agree that Jesus really existed, much less agree on what, exactly, HE taught, and what, exactly, HIS religious organization looked like, or if he even had one.

Only crackpots claim Jesus did not exist. As for his teachings, the Bible is a reliable record, the colored beads of the Jesus Seminar notwithstanding.

[_EAllusion]

The evidence of Jesus's existence isn't the greatest and rests primarily on the fact that it makes more sense that the messianic cult that we do have good evidence of some years later was based, at least in part, on a real Jesus rather than a purely fictional amalgam of the dime a dozen messianic figures/teachers/faith healers of the timeperiod. Blessed are the cheesemakers.

The evidence of Jesus's existence is in the ball park of Socrates. Sometimes I see Christians get carried away with the realization that the evidence for lots of historical figures isn't stellar and start making crazy claims like there being more evidence for Jesus than Julius Caesar. Uh, no.

[_Jason Bourne]

Elaborate on this. Is the Potato Head religion Christian too?

Why do I have to elaborate? Do members of the PHR accept Jesus as the Savior?

Do you really think we should accept a definition that results in Catholicism being labeled "not christian"?????

Catholicism is the ROOT of all other Christian religions. How can ANY religion be Christian if the ROOT is not Christian????

Because it was the first to pervert it. That's all. Is the fact that Catholicism is mainstream make is Christian? Then by that logic, anything that isn't mainstream is not Christian, right?

Even more reason why I see this thread will go nowhere. GP, Catholics are as Christian as they come. They think the Protestants corrupted Christianity not the other way around.

Anyone who argues Catholics are not Christian cannot be taken seriously on this topic.

I guess I did not realize you had been a Mormon. And if you are no religion now-I think you indicated as such-why do you seem to take a conservative protestant stance?

And if you were Mormon you understand the Joseph Smith judging this dispensation issue is really in the same context as the original 12 judging the house of Israel as well as the concept that one cannot reject the testimony of true apostles without rejecting Christ. The New Testament came from apostles. If you reject their words you reject Christ. Same is true of Joseph Smith if he really was an apostle.

[_thews]

And if you were Mormon you understand the Joseph Smith judging this dispensation issue is really in the same context as the original 12 judging the house of Israel as well as the concept that one cannot reject the testimony of true apostles without rejecting Christ. The New Testament came from apostles. If you reject their words you reject Christ. Same is true of Joseph Smith if he really was an apostle.

I reject Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God, and as an ex-Mormon who is now a Christian, this doesn't make me any less Christian, but rather not a "Mormon" by definition.

This question is about doctrine. Catholicism’s doctrine is the Bible only, as are all "Christian" faiths. All Christian religions reject the doctrine of Joseph Smith as false… end of story. If you accept the doctrine of Joseph Smith, that would make you a “Mormon” by definition. To imply Mormons are Christians is to also imply all Christians accept Joseph Smith’s doctrine, which is not true, but in fact false. The analogy I heard that aligns this argument the best is from a Mormon perspective is “Jews for Jesus.” Jews don’t mind being called “Jews” because that’s what they believe in. Christians could claim to be Jews because the accept the old testament, but why would they want to? If you find Mormonism so appalling that you’re embarrassed to call yourself a Mormon and instead claim to be “Christian” then you’re just appeasing your cognitive dissonance in my opinion, because “Mormons” believe in Mormon doctrine… they’re the only ones who accept it, thus warranting the label “Mormon” to define what they accept regarding doctrine.

[_Manfred]

To imply Mormons are Christians is to also imply all Christians accept Joseph Smith’s doctrine, which is not true, but in fact false.

Yes, it is false that all Christians accept Joseph Smith, but it is also false that "to imply Mormons are Christians is to also imply all Christians accept Joseph Smith’s doctrine." Pentecostals are Christians, yes? Should we infer, then, that all Christians are Pentecostals? Of course not.

[_Jason Bourne]

So are Mormons ignoring culturally accepted meanings of Christ? If not, why not?

Now you're making fine theological distinctions. Are only triniterians Christians? Why or why not?

I don't know enough about that debate to comment.

If you are going to argue Mormons are not Christian because they are too far removed from the Biblical Jesus you must understand this issue because that is the crux of it really.

So, in what ways are Mormons removed from what you think the Bible Jesus is?

[_Jason Bourne]

OK, new direction. Am I being unreasonable in rejecting Mormons as Christians?

You are mixing up arguments, that's what you're doing.

The argument should be "Is Mormonism Christianity?"

NOT

Mormons aren't Christians.

I hold to the position that Mormonism most certainly is NOT Christianity but that Mormon's can definitely be Christians.

Your position is incorrect as well. Mormonism is a subset of Christianity. Call it non orthodox, call it heretical. But it is never the less grounded in the Christian tradition and thus part of Christianity.

[_EAllusion]

To imply Mormons are Christians is to also imply all Christians accept Joseph Smith’s doctrine, which is not true, but in fact false.

Yes, it is false that all Christians accept Joseph Smith, but it is also false that "to imply Mormons are Christians is to also imply all Christians accept Joseph Smith’s doctrine." Pentecostals are Christians, yes? Should we infer, then, that all Christians are Pentecostals? Of course not.

[_thews]

To imply Mormons are Christians is to also imply all Christians accept Joseph Smith’s doctrine, which is not true, but in fact false.

Yes, it is false that all Christians accept Joseph Smith, but it is also false that "to imply Mormons are Christians is to also imply all Christians accept Joseph Smith’s doctrine." Pentecostals are Christians, yes? Should we infer, then, that all Christians are Pentecostals? Of course not.

Your argument is typical of Mormon arguments, which is to find some supposed parallel and base an argument on two-wrongs-make a right. With the internet comes information, and the Mormon whitewash is being exposed through factual data. Information on Mormonism was harder to get in the past and you had to seek it, but now all you have to do is muster up enough courage to click on a link that isn't spoon fed to you by the Mormon church (a.k.a. "LDS" approved sites). The facts dictate that Joseph Smith was a fraud. If you're brainwashed by Mormonism, you won't know it, and will reject the factual information as "anti" to appease the cognitive dissonance that comes with conflicting thoughts, and that is basic cult tactics to shield its members from the truth. Here's a few examples:

A) Polygamy/polyandry was right then, but wrong now. As long as it was God's idea, it's ok that there's conflict to a Mormon... to accept this, one has to believe God changes his mind, which would make God imperfect. To appease that, one must choose to believe is was God's idea to change his mind, because they weren't "ready" for the correct information. There will never be a final answer, because you'd have to accept that God approves of Joseph Smith in his 40's marrying many girls aged 14 and 15, and these girls were "given" to him.

B) Racism was right from 1842 to 1978, but it's wrong now. Again, as long as it was "God's" idea...

C) Joseph Smith was convicted of glass-looking through his magic rocks before the Book of Mormon was supposedly translated. Joseph Smith also tried to join the Methodist church in 1828, but was denied for being a practicing necromancer. Joseph Smith was a Mason and the Mormon temples have 5 pointed stars, Masonic rituals and other occult rituals/practices that are clearly not Christian, but exclusive only to Mormonism. Joseph Smith can be exposed as cheating on his wife in the letter written to his child bride Sarah Ann Whitney, but Mormons must choose to shelve this letter and what it represents, because it can't be true and have Mormonism true, so the brainwash dictates to them that it is false... it's a fact that it's true, and that Joseph Smith married many little girls in exchange for eternal salvation to the family that "gave" their daughter to him. The Book of Abraham was "translated" from a pagan papyrus by Joseph Smith who didn't know how to translate Egyptian, but claimed he did.

In summation, as information regarding the true Mormon history becomes common knowledge, it becomes embarrassing to Mormons to associate with the mainstream when the mainstream knows about magic rocks and magical underwear. To thwart this, appeasing their cognitive dissonance and maintaining their lifestyle, they choose to call themselves "Christians" to hide from it. To a real TBM, they reject the notion that they are anything but Mormon by definition. Your argument is one of many that you must accept to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, as arguments from silence and parallels to other arguments must be digested to maintain your belief in the Mormon myth... myths aren't supported by anything tangible. If you want to be called a Christian, that's your choice, but if you choose to call yourself a Christian, it assumes you reject Mormon doctrine... you know, from "the most perfect book ever written" ...the one Mormons place higher than the Bible, and that's changed almost 4000 times. If you believe in Mormon doctrine then you're a Mormon by definition.

[_thews]

Your position is incorrect as well. Mormonism is a subset of Christianity. Call it non orthodox, call it heretical. But it is never the less grounded in the Christian tradition and thus part of Christianity.

Mormonism is not a "subset" of Christianity. "Christian" faiths have two things in common:

1) Christian faiths base their doctrine on the Bible only. They may disagee and different aspects, but the doctrine is constant.

2) All Christian faiths reject Mormon doctrine as being from a false prophet of God.

Mormons are not Christians and Christians are not Mormons... only Mormons are Mormons.