Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

[_Jason Bourne]

This is what you want to believe now… it’s not what they said. Brigham Young taught that Adam was God, but you discount that don’t you? …somehow still holding onto the believe that BY talked to God, as did Joseph Smith? It’s all or nothing and the statements made by your “Mormon” prophets are in fact “Mormon” and not Christian. Only “Mormons” believe Joseph Smith and his false prophecies, occult magic, polygamy/polyandry, Masonic rituals, etc., are from God …Christians reject it …all Christians reject Mormon doctrine.

Thews I am not what may be termed as a TBM Mormon. I personally do not believe the LDS Church or any Church is the ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHURCH. I believe Joseph Smith and BY did and taught some things that were very true and some that were not true at all.

I have no need to defend all of Mormonism. My only point is Mormonism is a Christian sect probably has about as much truth and error as most if not all the others have. I am not sure what you point of view is though.

[_Thama]

Mormonism is not a "subset" of Christianity. "Christian" faiths have two things in common:

1) Christian faiths base their doctrine on the Bible only. They may disagee and different aspects, but the doctrine is constant.

So Catholicism isn't a Christian faith? Apparently Christianity just took a millennium and a half off between the time of its founder and the time when people finally figured him out.

2) All Christian faiths reject Mormon doctrine as being from a false prophet of God.

Mormons are not Christians and Christians are not Mormons... only Mormons are Mormons.

Just dumb. You could just as easily define Christian faiths are all religions that believe in Jesus and don't worship the false god of Biblical inerrancy, and then say "All Christian faiths think that Protestants are a bunch of doofuses". Or you could define true rock fans as people who hate the Beatles, and say "All rock fans reject John Lennon as their favorite musician".

[_Jason Bourne]

Jersey Girl:


You misunderstand what I mean by the "nature of man" beastie and "God's relationship to man".

I cannot think of a single Christian denomination that teaches that man can become what God is.

If you know of one, please post it.

It is my understanding the early Christianity held to the concept of deification or theosis and that many still believe in it though not in the same way LDS do. Never the less there is the doctrine the Christ indwells by the Holy Ghost us and will infuse us with the His divinity when we become Joint Heirs with him in heaven.

[_EAllusion]

You got to love it when evangelicals, a odd, fringe theological offshoot of Christian thought in historical terms, defines Catholicism as unchristian.

[_Gadianton Plumber]

I find it odd that a system based on rejecting Christianity as a whole as an abomination and a perversion gets to call itself Christian when it suits it.

Yes, Mormonism is Christian. In the same way MPH Christ based religions are Christian. Mormonism is not theologically Christian. You need only attend a Christian church to see this.

Bleh. Mormons do violence on the term to keep themselves happy. They do violence to a lot lof things to keep themselves happy.

[_Manfred]

Yes, it is false that all Christians accept Joseph Smith, but it is also false that "to imply Mormons are Christians is to also imply all Christians accept Joseph Smith’s doctrine." Pentecostals are Christians, yes? Should we infer, then, that all Christians are Pentecostals? Of course not.

Your argument is typical of Mormon arguments, which is to find some supposed parallel and base an argument on two-wrongs-make a right. With the internet comes information, and the Mormon whitewash is being exposed through factual data. Information on Mormonism was harder to get in the past and you had to seek it, but now all you have to do is muster up enough courage to click on a link that isn't spoon fed to you by the Mormon church (a.k.a. "LDS" approved sites). The facts dictate that Joseph Smith was a fraud. If you're brainwashed by Mormonism, you won't know it, and will reject the factual information as "anti" to appease the cognitive dissonance that comes with conflicting thoughts, and that is basic cult tactics to shield its members from the truth. Here's a few examples:

A) Polygamy/polyandry was right then, but wrong now. As long as it was God's idea, it's ok that there's conflict to a Mormon... to accept this, one has to believe God changes his mind, which would make God imperfect. To appease that, one must choose to believe is was God's idea to change his mind, because they weren't "ready" for the correct information. There will never be a final answer, because you'd have to accept that God approves of Joseph Smith in his 40's marrying many girls aged 14 and 15, and these girls were "given" to him.

B) Racism was right from 1842 to 1978, but it's wrong now. Again, as long as it was "God's" idea...

C) Joseph Smith was convicted of glass-looking through his magic rocks before the Book of Mormon was supposedly translated. Joseph Smith also tried to join the Methodist church in 1828, but was denied for being a practicing necromancer. Joseph Smith was a Mason and the Mormon temples have 5 pointed stars, Masonic rituals and other occult rituals/practices that are clearly not Christian, but exclusive only to Mormonism. Joseph Smith can be exposed as cheating on his wife in the letter written to his child bride Sarah Ann Whitney, but Mormons must choose to shelve this letter and what it represents, because it can't be true and have Mormonism true, so the brainwash dictates to them that it is false... it's a fact that it's true, and that Joseph Smith married many little girls in exchange for eternal salvation to the family that "gave" their daughter to him. The Book of Abraham was "translated" from a pagan papyrus by Joseph Smith who didn't know how to translate Egyptian, but claimed he did.

In summation, as information regarding the true Mormon history becomes common knowledge, it becomes embarrassing to Mormons to associate with the mainstream when the mainstream knows about magic rocks and magical underwear. To thwart this, appeasing their cognitive dissonance and maintaining their lifestyle, they choose to call themselves "Christians" to hide from it. To a real TBM, they reject the notion that they are anything but Mormon by definition. Your argument is one of many that you must accept to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, as arguments from silence and parallels to other arguments must be digested to maintain your belief in the Mormon myth... myths aren't supported by anything tangible. If you want to be called a Christian, that's your choice, but if you choose to call yourself a Christian, it assumes you reject Mormon doctrine... you know, from "the most perfect book ever written" ...the one Mormons place higher than the Bible, and that's changed almost 4000 times. If you believe in Mormon doctrine then you're a Mormon by definition.

You've written quite a bit here, but, unfortunately for you, at no point did you come at all close to demonstrating that your ridiculous "to imply Mormons are Christians is to also imply all Christians accept Joseph Smith’s doctrine," is a logically sound statement. I suppose that for you, all dogs are pugs, right? Because, as you know, all pugs are dogs....

Better luck next time, thews.

[_Calculus Crusader]

You got to love it when evangelicals, a odd, fringe theological offshoot of Christian thought in historical terms, defines Catholicism as unchristian.

Evangelical Christians are not an "odd, fringe theological offshoot of Christian thought in historical terms." Their spiritual antecedents (e.g., the "Lollards") predate even the Reformation. (Naturally, the RCC of the day responded to their theological challenges by trying to eliminate them.)

[_thews]

Thews I am not what may be termed as a TBM Mormon. I personally do not believe the LDS Church or any Church is the ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHURCH. I believe Joseph Smith and BY did and taught some things that were very true and some that were not true at all.

Well we agree on one thing, as I don't believe there is only one true church either. But I do believe there are false churches, and it's mainly Mormonism. If you acknowledge what's good vs. bad that's different than acknowledging what's true vs. false. A false prophet of God is defined in the Bible and Joseph Smith passes the false prophet of God tests on many levels.

I have no need to defend all of Mormonism. My only point is Mormonism is a Christian sect probably has about as much truth and error as most if not all the others have. I am not sure what you point of view is though.

My point of view regarding Christianity is my own and I don't define it any further than "Christianity" in that I believe Jesus Christ was God and it stops there. But, to this argument, Mormons have doctrine that only they accept, and if they could they'd take the changed version of the Bible (JST) which would make their entire doctrine exclusive to only Mormons. The doctrine is what defines a religion, as Jews are not Christians, though Christians accept the old testament. Christians define themselves by the Bible, as Mormons are defined by the exclusive complete a separate doctrine, along with the entire concept of Christ being different (brother of Satan etc.), which is all exclusive to Mormonism as is the occult magic.

Again this push for Mormons to be morph into mainstream Christianity is to distance themselves from the ugly past. Ignore it if you choose and call yourself what you wish, but a Mormon by definition is someone who accepts Mormon doctrine. Do you have a magical peep stone Jason?

[_thews]

Your argument is typical of Mormon arguments, which is to find some supposed parallel and base an argument on two-wrongs-make a right. With the internet comes information, and the Mormon whitewash is being exposed through factual data. Information on Mormonism was harder to get in the past and you had to seek it, but now all you have to do is muster up enough courage to click on a link that isn't spoon fed to you by the Mormon church (a.k.a. "LDS" approved sites). The facts dictate that Joseph Smith was a fraud. If you're brainwashed by Mormonism, you won't know it, and will reject the factual information as "anti" to appease the cognitive dissonance that comes with conflicting thoughts, and that is basic cult tactics to shield its members from the truth. Here's a few examples:

A) Polygamy/polyandry was right then, but wrong now. As long as it was God's idea, it's ok that there's conflict to a Mormon... to accept this, one has to believe God changes his mind, which would make God imperfect. To appease that, one must choose to believe is was God's idea to change his mind, because they weren't "ready" for the correct information. There will never be a final answer, because you'd have to accept that God approves of Joseph Smith in his 40's marrying many girls aged 14 and 15, and these girls were "given" to him.

B) Racism was right from 1842 to 1978, but it's wrong now. Again, as long as it was "God's" idea...

C) Joseph Smith was convicted of glass-looking through his magic rocks before the Book of Mormon was supposedly translated. Joseph Smith also tried to join the Methodist church in 1828, but was denied for being a practicing necromancer. Joseph Smith was a Mason and the Mormon temples have 5 pointed stars, Masonic rituals and other occult rituals/practices that are clearly not Christian, but exclusive only to Mormonism. Joseph Smith can be exposed as cheating on his wife in the letter written to his child bride Sarah Ann Whitney, but Mormons must choose to shelve this letter and what it represents, because it can't be true and have Mormonism true, so the brainwash dictates to them that it is false... it's a fact that it's true, and that Joseph Smith married many little girls in exchange for eternal salvation to the family that "gave" their daughter to him. The Book of Abraham was "translated" from a pagan papyrus by Joseph Smith who didn't know how to translate Egyptian, but claimed he did.

In summation, as information regarding the true Mormon history becomes common knowledge, it becomes embarrassing to Mormons to associate with the mainstream when the mainstream knows about magic rocks and magical underwear. To thwart this, appeasing their cognitive dissonance and maintaining their lifestyle, they choose to call themselves "Christians" to hide from it. To a real TBM, they reject the notion that they are anything but Mormon by definition. Your argument is one of many that you must accept to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, as arguments from silence and parallels to other arguments must be digested to maintain your belief in the Mormon myth... myths aren't supported by anything tangible. If you want to be called a Christian, that's your choice, but if you choose to call yourself a Christian, it assumes you reject Mormon doctrine... you know, from "the most perfect book ever written" ...the one Mormons place higher than the Bible, and that's changed almost 4000 times. If you believe in Mormon doctrine then you're a Mormon by definition.

You've written quite a bit here, but, unfortunately for you, at no point did you come at all close to demonstrating that your ridiculous "to imply Mormons are Christians is to also imply all Christians accept Joseph Smith’s doctrine," is a logically sound statement. I suppose that for you, all dogs are pugs, right? Because, as you know, all pugs are dogs....

Better luck next time, thews.

So, your counter argument is because you said so? Mormon doctrine from magic rocks in the hat of a convicted con man, or from the book of breathings is not Christian. It's very typical for Mormons to appease their cognitive dissonance with parallel arguments, because that's all they have and is what they've been instructed to believe. Again, call yourself what you wish, but if you define it as anything but "Mormon" you'll be presenting yourself as someone who rejects Mormon doctrine.

[Tator]

First, I want to repeat my question for any and all nonLDS Christians participating on this thread:

Do you believe that Mormons who strictly adhere to their own theology will be accepted into Heaven? Will a Mormon who believes that Jesus is the Christ, and accepts Jesus as his/her savior, but believes in LDS eternal progression, get into Heaven?

I am quite serious about this question. I want to see how it works to differentiate between Mormonism as a nonChristian religion and individual Mormons being Christian.

Thews:

Others have responded to you, but I also want to point out that this statement of yours:

This question is about doctrine. Catholicism’s doctrine is the Bible only, as are all "Christian" faiths.

is absolutely incorrect. Catholicism’s doctrine is most definitely not the Bible alone, nor are many other Christian religion’s. Catholicism establishes doctrine through historically accepted papal edicts as well as the Bible. (see: Magisterium)

Moreover, not all Christians accept the doctrines of other Christian sects. The claims of Catholicism are definitely not accepted by most Protestant sects – with some very basic, base-line exceptions. They accept that Jesus Christ is the son of God and is the Savior of mankind. That is the baseline belief that all Christians can be reasonably said to accept. And that is exactly why I think that should be the only baseline by which we determine whether or not a given faith is Christian. As soon as you stray from that very basic baseline, you begin discussing more involved doctrines and begin establishing baselines that eliminate some sects universally accepted as Christian. That is exactly what has happened on this thread, with people claiming that Catholicism – of all things – is not Christian, and now with you claiming that “doctrine is the Bible alone”. Of course, by that baseline, Mormonism is Christian. I’ve got to say, I wonder if some of you would be straining at that basic definition in any other discussion but one regarding Mormonism.

1) Christian faiths base their doctrine on the Bible only. They may disagee and different aspects, but the doctrine is constant.

Once again, absolutely wrong. There are some Christian sects that declare their doctrine is based on the Bible alone, and that no man can stand between people and the Bible. But there are many other sects that are universally accepted as “Christian” that also have a method of establishing doctrine that involves the traditions of past teachings shared by past church leaders – not unlike how Mormon doctrine can involve traditions based on past teachings of prophets.

There is a reason that so many EVs refuse to recognize Catholicism as “Christian”. It has to do with this concept, the concept of whether or not another human being can stand between you and the Bible in terms of establishing God’s will. And yet outside the small group of EVs, Catholicism is universally recognized as Christian. That is why any definition that strays into doctrine OTHER than: Jesus Christ is the Savior of mankind – runs the risks of eliminating sects that any sane person would recognize as Christian – like Catholicism. Any baseline we establish should include universally recognized Christian sects, else it is fundamentally flawed.

Aside from viewing only the Bible as the base of doctrine, all Christian doctrines are not constant!!! Where did you get this idea??? Do all Christians accept the pope as God’s representative? Obviously not. Do all Christians accept pre-destination???? Obviously not. Are all Christians Trinitarians??? Obviously not!!! Do all Christians believe in infant baptism??? Obviously not. There is no constancy in Christianity other than: Jesus Christ is the Savior of mankind. And that is why it should logically be the baseline by which we evaluate whether or not respective sects can rightfully be called Christians.

Jason:

Your position is incorrect as well. Mormonism is a subset of Christianity. Call it non orthodox, call it heretical. But it is never the less grounded in the Christian tradition and thus part of Christianity.

I strongly agree. Good grief, the goal of Mormonism was a return to primitivist Christianity. Now one can argue that they got primitivism all wrong, and they probably did, although I don’t see how anyone can claim to authoritatively know that. But that was obviously their goal.

I’m fine with calling Mormonism unorthodox, with calling it a heresy, whatever – but to deny that its roots are Christian and it can be rightfully called a subset of Christianity seems incredibly wrong-headed to me.

thews:

My point of view regarding Christianity is my own and I don't define it any further than "Christianity" in that I believe Jesus Christ was God and it stops there.

Then how can you deny that Mormons are Christians????

Again this push for Mormons to be morph into mainstream Christianity is to distance themselves from the ugly past.

This conversation is not about whether or not Mormonism can be called mainstream Christian. I don't think a single person on this thread has made the argument that it can. Clearly, it is not mainstream Christian. But - by your own definition of Christianity, Mormonism is Christian. Not mainstream, not orthodox - but Christian.


Just a reminder, to any and all Christians who deny Mormonism is a Christian religion:

Do you believe that Mormons who strictly adhere to their own theology will be accepted into Heaven? Will a Mormon who believes that Jesus is the Christ, and accepts Jesus as his/her savior, but believes in LDS eternal progression, get into Heaven?

Inquiring minds want to know. ;)