I posted this on the part 2 thread and thought I would post it here as well:
I will here attempt to argue that Mormonism has left theological Christianity behind, and is something TC.
I think it is clear that your understanding of Christological debates is limited and an attempt to define out LDS from Christianity based on such things requires you to do the same for many current and historical Christian sects. I suggest Dan Peterson's book Offender for a Word. I also suggest Bart Ehrman's The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, or for and easier read, his book Lost Christianities. Both these book demonstrate that there were major theological debates and schisms right from the very start of Christianity.
Beastie posited that the only requirements for theological Christianity being "Christ as personal savior" and some attachment to the Bible. Therefore, I will try to show that Mormonism does not qualify on either count.
Not really, She said that was a major component but there are other elements as well. Keep in mind her point the the LDS Church had its roots in Christian restorationist fervor. There are many even traditional Christian element in LDS Doctrine.
But most important is the issue of the Fall of man, redemption, resurrection, salvation and eternal life all which is focused on Christ. I note that not one person on your other thread dealt with JSs comment about Christ being the center of our faith and all thing are appendages. There are a lot of elements to Mormonism but Christ is central and there is no LDS faith without Him.
1. Biblical Mormonism. Mormonism is based primarily on the concept that the Bible is fatally flawed. There have been many plain and precious things removed from the text. Joseph Smith altered the Bible as he saw fit in his translations. The Bible informs certain parts of LDS theology, but fundamentally it is junior in authority to everything else that Mormonism has created. For example A. JST B. Book of Mormon C. DC D. PoGP and most critically, the living prophet.
This is an oversimplification. And fatally flawed is an gross overstatement on how LDS view the Bible. It is part of our Canon and one of our Standard Works by which doctrine is judged.
I do not see any compelling reason that Mormonism is assigned Biblical status. Their Christ is found as much outside the original canon, as inside. The new works may begin with a Biblical Christ, but they have reject any semblance of Biblical authority of that Christ. Theologians in other Christian faiths can and do disagree on the nature and implication of Christ, but they are usually rooted in the Bible. Their own revelations are not relevant to the conversation. Jack, Chris, and Thews should be able to correct me on this if I err.
I see nothing in the unique LDS scripture that would substantively take away from Christ's central role as savior and redeemer as well as The Eternal God as the Book of Mormon states as well as being One with the Father in all ways but essence or substance.
2. Christ as Personal Savior. I also do not believe that on a fundamental level, that Mormons have any real developed concept of Christ as Savior, rather it refers to it obliquely. I will not duplicate what I have presented in part one, but will attempt something new by trying to define the term. What is the Mormon Christ saving you from and what is the nature of that salvation?
Mormons talk about Christ as their personal savior all the time. There whole testimony is couched in terms of Him saving them. More below.
A. Christ will pay the price for your sins if you ask him to. Good enough. But this is where the Biblical salvation ends.
Oh nonsense. Did you read D&C 20:1-34? If not do it. Now. If you were a Mormon and can spout this nonsense you were not very well versed. Then read Article of Faith 3 and 4 and then read D&C 76.
B. You must repent of all said sins in order to gain forgiveness. Every sin? I was was taught that we are commanded to repent of every sin and if we sin again, the old ones come back. Additionally, if I am capable of repenting for every sin, what is the use of the Atonement?
Repentance of sin is a key element of all Christian sects. Repenting ignites the atonement. Even Born Again EVs believe one must repent of sin. Repentance means asking God to forgive you and take Jesus sacrifice in place of yours. Then the LDS person (or any Christian) must enter into a covenant to accept Jesus as Savior and Lord and follow Him. Repentance is impossible in LDS doctrine without the Savior Jesus Christ. If he had not paid for our sin repentance would not be available.
C. Only after you have done all you can will Christ save you. But humans do not ever do all they can. It is very much human nature to be lazy and to chose the wrong, even when you know it is wrong. These shortcomings must be repented of as well. And what happens if I was going to repent of a shortcoming but I died first? Is it all for nothing?
You are twisting and distorting this to serve your own agenda. Mormons believe in Justification by Grace and sanctification by Grace along with our works. Mormons teach we can never do enough but we still do what we can. Believing the works are an important element of ones Christian walks does not make one non Christian. Even strict saved by grace only EVers believe in works and that their works earn them rewards.
D. You do not know if you are saved. Your good deeds must be counted against your bad deeds. Wait, the bad deeds needed to be repented of or you are screwed. There is zero assurance of salvation in Mormonism.
This is false as well. But I will allow you this as some Mormon leaders have over emphasized works to the point it distorts LDS teachings about grace and works and how they work together.
E. Your do not own your salvation. Yes, you can pray and accept Jesus as your savior, according to the above rules, but according to Mormon theology, it is the Church who forgives sins, at least partially. Also you must be a member in good standing to be saved. The moment you are disfellowshipped or exed, you have lost your salvation. The Church owns your relationship with salvation. Not you, not Christ, the Church.
Not that much different than any other authoritarian based Christian sect like say the Catholic who are Christian.
F. The temple and rituals give salvation. If baptism is required, REQUIRED along with the endowment, getting sealed, etc. etc. for salvation, where is salvation coming from? What is one of the missions of the Church? To redeem the dead. This is properly the role of Christ, not the role of the Church. However, according to LDS doctrine, salvation comes through covenants.
One can enter the celestial kingdom without temple ordinances. See D&C 76. However to reach the highest reward LDS doctrine does teach the need for additional temple ordinances. However, as all LDS know, the ordinances in the temple mean nothing without the atonement of Christ. Had he not worked out the redemption of mankind then the ordinances do nothing for a person. Esoteric rites have been part of Christianity in the past and may be currently. They do not disqualify a group from being Christian.
In reality, the Church is the savior for the Mormon, theologically, Christ is sort of set up as a mascot. My diagnosis is that Mormonism is neither Biblical nor does it have a personal savior. It is a TC Church, not a doctrinal or theological Christian church.
Well you are clearly wrong.
In LDS doctrine:
Christ is God, One with the Father and is in every way infused with his Power, Might, Mind, Purpose and so on. Jesus is our savior and redeemer. There is not one word in the Bible about what it claims for Christ that LDS do not believe. LDS may interpret some things differently than others in some cases but they do believe the Bible. In fact they believe it more literally an completely than many liberal Christian denominations today. Christ is the Only Name under Heaven whereby LDS can be saved. They believe this fully. LDS Talk of Christ, they preach of Christ, the attempt to walk a Christ like life and be His disciple the best they can. They believe their Prophets are called by Christ and have Christ's authority. Take Jesus Christ out of the LDS Church and you have no Church.